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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

What crossover-topology?
What crossover-topology?
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Old 29th April 2019, 01:06 PM   #1
3wayaddict is offline 3wayaddict  Netherlands
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Default What crossover-topology?

Hi,

I've finished my big SB-Acoustics Satori project a while ago. With TW29B-B tweeter, MR16P-4 midrange and two WO24P-8 woofers in parallel in a MTWW configuration, actively tri-amp driven by a Hypex FA123. I've got the crossover points in the DSP set at 300 Hz and 3 kHz with a 1st-order roll-off. I made the frequency response completely flat, no BBC dip or any of that. I don't like the idea of changing the frequency response to make something seem to sound good because a given frequency response profile doesn't work as good for one music genre than the other. And also I don't like to change it in the first place, I want to hear things the way they are, no wizardry.

The speakers sound amazing, like high-end worthy, for easier, more relaxed and well-recorded music like acoustic music and other kinds of well-recorded music. For example albums like Anouk - Update, Nils Lofgren - Acoustic Live, Malia - Convergence, Gipsy Kings - Bem Bem Maria. You know, the beautiful kind of music, which they often like to play at hifi shows. Though with more complicated, not as well recorded music, like any rock, pop and alternative music like Golden Earring or Supertramp and all the other greatest music ever made, the speakers do get pretty harsh pretty quickly.

What do you think it will be? I think there's two reasons this could be. Either my speakers are SO good and revealing with their flat response to the point that when you play anything through it that isn't recorded very well, they shove it right in your face. Or, the 1st-order roll-off is a little to much even for these drivers. the midrange really is crossed quite at the limits of where it would like to be crossed. It doesn't like to do much below 300 Hz and it starts to roll off above 3 kHz. The roll-off above 3 kHz shouldn't really cause any harshness but maybe the very wide 1st-order roll-off below 300 Hz is a little much.

What do you think?
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Old 29th April 2019, 01:39 PM   #2
Sonce is offline Sonce  Macedonia
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The problem is tweeter first-order filter on too low crossover frequency. Either choose higher crossover frequency, or use steeper roll-off.
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Old 29th April 2019, 01:46 PM   #3
mushroommunk is offline mushroommunk  United States
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Sonce is probably correct, however there could be a second confounding factor. What's the frequency response at your listening position?

A lot of music was mixed expecting a continual roll off from the low mid-bass all the way up. The Harman Kardon target curve and the like. I've found music is usually way to grating unless I've got something similar to that curve at the listening position.
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Old 29th April 2019, 02:10 PM   #4
3wayaddict is offline 3wayaddict  Netherlands
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroommunk View Post
Sonce is probably correct, however there could be a second confounding factor. What's the frequency response at your listening position?

A lot of music was mixed expecting a continual roll off from the low mid-bass all the way up. The Harman Kardon target curve and the like. I've found music is usually way to grating unless I've got something similar to that curve at the listening position.
Well the tweeter is crossed at 3 kHz. Considering this tweeter one of the most capable on the market with a big size of 29 mm, has some of the lowest distortion on the market and is can actually be used happily to under 1,8 kHz I don't expect it to have much trouble I'm not saying your wrong, I believe it maybe does have a hard time after all.
I think I'll make the low-pass roll-off of the midrange and the high-pass roll-off of the tweeter 2nd-order. That might be a good shot. Crossing even higher is not an option.

When tuning the frequency response I put the speakers in the room and put the measuring mic at the listening position. I the DSP corrected the speakers to be totally flat.
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Last edited by 3wayaddict; 29th April 2019 at 02:16 PM.
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Old 29th April 2019, 02:17 PM   #5
TBTL is offline TBTL  Germany
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Do your slopes refer to the electrical or acoustic responses?

Equalizing bass at the listening position is fine, though for mids and highs it is better to use anechoic measurements. Otherwise there is a risk of filling up dips that to not exist when the individual sounds reach your ears.

A quick recipe:
- Let the acoustic 'response' of the individual drivers follow a fourth order Linkwitz-Riley response at their operating frequency band + a few octaves outside of them. 'Response' refers to some weighted combination of on-axis and off-axis measurements including equalization, as measured under anechoic conditions.
- Apply delay to the individual drivers to time align them.
- Measure the complete loudspeaker at your listening position and equalize low frequencies < 300 Hz.
- Add equalization for personal preference.

Last edited by TBTL; 29th April 2019 at 02:30 PM.
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Old 29th April 2019, 02:18 PM   #6
3wayaddict is offline 3wayaddict  Netherlands
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The slopes in the DSP, so I guess that's electrical.
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Old 29th April 2019, 02:24 PM   #7
mushroommunk is offline mushroommunk  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3wayaddict View Post
Well the tweeter is crossed at 3 kHz. Considering this tweeter one of the most capable on the market with a big size of 29 mm, has some of the lowest distortion on the market and is can actually be used happily to under 1,8 kHz I don't expect it to have much trouble I'm not saying your wrong, I believe it maybe does have a hard time after all.
I think I'll make the low-pass roll-off of the midrange and the high-pass roll-off of the tweeter 2nd-order. That might be a good shot. Crossing even higher is not an option.

When tuning the frequency response I put the speakers in the room and put the measuring mic at the listening position. I the DSP corrected the speakers to be totally flat.
There's your problem. Music isn't mixed well for that. Your highs are way too strong compared to the bass. Read up on target curves. They're there for a reason and are the assumed response for listeners. You want the speaker to be able to reproduce flat with low distortion, but at listening position that isn't actually what you want at all. You want a rolloff from about 2Khz of 1-2.5 dB per octave. I'm not surprised one bit things sound harsh to you.
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Old 29th April 2019, 04:25 PM   #8
Sonce is offline Sonce  Macedonia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3wayaddict View Post
I made the frequency response completely flat, no BBC dip or any of that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroommunk View Post
Your highs are way too strong compared to the bass. Read up on target curves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3wayaddict View Post
I the DSP corrected the speakers to be totally flat.
I concur with mushroommunk, I assumed that your notion about "flat DSP" specifically means no BBC dip or something similar. But, your measurements are really flat, which subjectively means pronounced highs, especially when playing louder.
Anyhow, it is a good idea to check the tweeter distortion below 3 kHz (with the DSP filter ON).
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Old 29th April 2019, 05:50 PM   #9
3wayaddict is offline 3wayaddict  Netherlands
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I looked up the frequency response of some speakers at Stereophile, they are kind enough to make in-room measurements of every speaker they review.
I looked up some very good speaker like the Focal Kanta No.2, Focal Sopra No.3 Paradigm Persona H9F, KEF Reference 5 and KEF Blade. Then I looked up some of the best speakers in the world like the Tidal Akira, Rockport Technologies Avior II, YG Acoustics Carmel 2. And they all had very flat in-room responses, some even flatter than mine, some even with slightly raised highs. And I think it would be unacceptable from those speakers to be harsh. So I think I'll start with taking the slopes from 1st to 2nd-order. I'll see from there what happens.
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Old 29th April 2019, 06:17 PM   #10
mushroommunk is offline mushroommunk  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3wayaddict View Post
I looked up the frequency response of some speakers at Stereophile, they are kind enough to make in-room measurements of every speaker they review.
I looked up some very good speaker like the Focal Kanta No.2, Focal Sopra No.3 Paradigm Persona H9F, KEF Reference 5 and KEF Blade. Then I looked up some of the best speakers in the world like the Tidal Akira, Rockport Technologies Avior II, YG Acoustics Carmel 2. And they all had very flat in-room responses, some even flatter than mine, some even with slightly raised highs. And I think it would be unacceptable from those speakers to be harsh. So I think I'll start with taking the slopes from 1st to 2nd-order. I'll see from there what happens.
If you look carefully, it isn't his listening position. He's using several tricks to get in-room measurements as close to anechoic as he can. (Speaking of stereophile here, for example the Focal Kanta No.2 for example)

"Fig.3 Focal Kanta No.2, anechoic response on tweeter axis at 50""

Speaker measures flat, but that isn't what he hears at listening position unless John Atkinson lives in an anechoic chamber, but then he wouldn't need to be merging nearfield and farfield responses like he does.
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