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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

What crossover-topology?
What crossover-topology?
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Old 29th April 2019, 08:54 PM   #21
OscarS is offline OscarS  United States
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Originally Posted by 3wayaddict View Post
That of the tweeter or the entire system?

For the tweeter itself. It's at it highest at 1,1 kHz at 1,8 % gradually going down without any peaks to under 0,2 % from 5,5 to 8 kHz and then gradually rising to 1 % at 10 kHz and then slightly lowering again to 0,8 % at 20 kHz.
This is at 94 dB.

For the entire system, this was the last in-room measurement I made at 75 dB:
Thank you, it just caught my attention because I have some very nice AMT tweeters and I wanted to know where they stand.
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Old 29th April 2019, 08:58 PM   #22
AllenB is offline AllenB  Australia
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A small roundover routed into the sides of the baffle is not going to do much. It wants to be comparable in size to those frequencies it is working with.
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Old 29th April 2019, 09:00 PM   #23
3wayaddict is offline 3wayaddict  Netherlands
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Originally Posted by OscarS View Post
Thank you, it just caught my attention because I have some very nice AMT tweeters and I wanted to know where they stand.
Well this together with the Scan-Speak beryllium tweeters are probably the lowest distortion domes available on the market as bare drivers so they're a good reference. Though good AMTs can have even lower distortion. The Mundorf hifiAMT 25s for example and some of their other models have half or less the distortion of the beryllium Revelator tweeter.
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Old 29th April 2019, 10:53 PM   #24
wesayso is offline wesayso  Netherlands
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I know you dream of building the best speakers ever. While that will remain a dream for a bit longer, learn to properly adjust the speakers you have right now.
An electrical slope says nothing in a crossover, no matter how fancy it's name can be. Only the acoustical slope counts when crossing over one driver to the next.

An in room (at listening spot) frequency curve should not be flat. There are good reasons for that. I know you dream about those high dollar speakers, but what you have can sound way more sweet than what you've heard so far.

Don't try to mimic those high dollar setups, go listen to real music and make that your new reference. It shouldn't sound like speakers, it should sound just like that real musical performance.

Even the BBC dip you call trickery is there on lots of speakers for a good reason. The reason being you and I have two ears we listen with, not one microphone capsule.

If you want to do it right, start with the known basics. They have been pointed out to you here, go investigate the knowledge of the people at Harmon, they are no fools.
Be arured if you want your speakers to sound right, it takes more than slapping together some electrical slopes and EQ it flat. Get the acoustical slopes right for whatever crossover you desire, but know it will be almost impossible to have a first order crossover that works without mayor draw backs.

You'd be better of with second order, and if you want you could use phase compensation (with FIR filters) in order to keep the transient response you're after.

Just my 2 cents...
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Old 29th April 2019, 11:36 PM   #25
peteki is offline peteki  Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wesayso View Post
I know you dream of building the best speakers ever. While that will remain a dream for a bit longer, learn to properly adjust the speakers you have right now.
An electrical slope says nothing in a crossover, no matter how fancy it's name can be. Only the acoustical slope counts when crossing over one driver to the next.

An in room (at listening spot) frequency curve should not be flat. There are good reasons for that. I know you dream about those high dollar speakers, but what you have can sound way more sweet than what you've heard so far.

Don't try to mimic those high dollar setups, go listen to real music and make that your new reference. It shouldn't sound like speakers, it should sound just like that real musical performance.

Even the BBC dip you call trickery is there on lots of speakers for a good reason. The reason being you and I have two ears we listen with, not one microphone capsule.

If you want to do it right, start with the known basics. They have been pointed out to you here, go investigate the knowledge of the people at Harmon, they are no fools.
Be arured if you want your speakers to sound right, it takes more than slapping together some electrical slopes and EQ it flat. Get the acoustical slopes right for whatever crossover you desire, but know it will be almost impossible to have a first order crossover that works without mayor draw backs.

You'd be better of with second order, and if you want you could use phase compensation (with FIR filters) in order to keep the transient response you're after.

Just my 2 cents...

My own experience with crossovers parallel yours. Higher order eg third order produce unexpected results and can sound strange. Second order Butterworth, with suitable reversal of speakers seem more musical and simpler to implement than more complex configurations.
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Old 29th April 2019, 11:41 PM   #26
wesayso is offline wesayso  Netherlands
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I have no crossovers , see: The making of: The Two Towers (a 25 driver Full Range line array)

All I'm trying to point out is that a first order crossover will be quite difficult to achieve. One does not slap on an electic slope and be done with it.
Second order is quite doable in comparison. As long as we are truly talking about acoustical slopes it will take less effort than creating a true first order setup.
No crossover? Well, it does present other compromises that I was willing to make.

I have used second order slopes as well as mixed slopes like Harsch and preferred those to higher order slopes. I'm definitely one of the people that believes phase matters. That's why I went with something that could achieve that. There are several other ways though.
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Last edited by wesayso; 29th April 2019 at 11:55 PM.
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Old 30th April 2019, 12:58 AM   #27
ICG is offline ICG  Germany
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Location: I had a Déjà Moo - I've seen that BS before!
Why 6dB at all? The power for the tweeter on low frequencies drops not nearly fast enough. It is likely it exceeds its linear excursion (not built for that), underhung drivers (like tweeters) often practically explode in distortion if they leave the linear excursion (but are often excellent before that).

Do a gated measurement, measure K2, K3 and K5, ~50cm-1m, away from the walls. Tweeter first, if that's not conclusive, then measure the mid driver.

What measurement mic do you have? Do you have a compensation file for it?

Satori TW29B | HiFiCompass - всё для акустических систем и не только

The distortion very quickly rises with the spl below 2k.
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Last edited by ICG; 30th April 2019 at 01:00 AM.
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Old 30th April 2019, 12:11 PM   #28
3wayaddict is offline 3wayaddict  Netherlands
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Well yeah I've taken a deeper look in measurements of the tweeter and midrange and I noticed that actually the midrange already has quite rolled off at 3 kHz. To really keep a consistent off-axis response it would be actually beneficial to cross at 2 kHz, though what will that do to the sound signature? Because of the more consistent dispersion the tweeter and midrange will blend in better and there might even be a slight improvement in soundstage, though I'll only get the Sd and richness of the MR16P-4 to a lower frequency, do you think it will negatively affect the body/richness of the sound by much or won't it be a problem and does that more depend on the frequency response. Second problem, judging on the distortion graphs, the TW29B really doesn't like to play under 2 kHz which will be a problem, also with a second order filter. The TW29BN doesn't rise in distortion nearly as much. It also has a 3 dB higher sensitivity which will greatly reduce distortion again. Substituting the TW29B for the TW29BN will be a good option. I don't have it though BUT, my project is sponsored by SB-Acoustics/Frank Nielsen themselves/himself, I got the drivers from them in the first place. Maybe, if I explain my problems to them, they might send me a pair of TW29BNs. I'm not sure and this is just a speculation but it's worth trying.
Also I noticed the MR16P-4 has the same problem as the tweeter, judging from its distortion graphs it doesn't like to play under 300 Hz either so I think the crossover between the midrange and woofers should be 2nd-order as well.
So ideally what I'm gonna do now: swap the TW29Bs for TW29BNs, if it doesn't negatively affect the tonality of the system too much take the midrange-to-tweeter crossover from 3 to 2~2,4 kHz, make the crossover slopes a higher order (so probably 2nd-order filter in the DSP) and EQ the speakers flat but anechoically so they have rolled off in-room response.
I think this should greatly improve the systems performance. Gonna write an email to my man Frank now.
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Last edited by 3wayaddict; 30th April 2019 at 12:33 PM.
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Old 30th April 2019, 12:32 PM   #29
TBTL is offline TBTL  Germany
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I would recommend to first fix the weakest points in your speaker, which are the crossover and the sharp edged baffle. Those fixes cost practically nothing. Swapping a perfectly fine tweeter for another just costs money without providing any benefit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3wayaddict View Post
So ideally what I'm gonna do now: swap the TW29Bs for TW29BNs, if it doesn't negatively affect the tonality of the system too much take the midrange-to-tweeter crossover from 3 to 2~2,4 kHz, make the crossover slopes a higher order (so probably 2nd-order filter in the DSP) [...]
Tonality purely is set by the DSP, it's not related to the tweeters. Forget about the slopes in the DSP, measure the acoustic slopes and make them follow a target response.

Last edited by TBTL; 30th April 2019 at 12:37 PM.
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Old 30th April 2019, 12:37 PM   #30
3wayaddict is offline 3wayaddict  Netherlands
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I would like to do so but I don't have the tools to round the baffles. And if I'm gonna do it by hand with a file I'm gonna be married by the time I'm finished and I'll end up with a terrible result.
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