Good morning, everyone,
I am a french student and I plan to start building a big sound system with friends. I have some sound basics because I have several friends in the Dub/reggae scene who have passive sound systems like 2 scoops + 1 kick + Pavilion, tweeter etc.
I have always been fascinated by the world of sound because my father is lucky enough to own a pair of Infinity Kappa 8s. It was with these speakers that I really started to appreciate the well tuned sound systems.
I would like to broadcast House mainly on my sound system but possibly other styles like funk, disco, rock. I'd like to build something powerful enough. I would like to know which cabinets are optimal for this kind of music for parties of up to 250 people outdoors. I was strongly advised to use the Turbosound housings which sound apparently very good (Never heard).
I'm not quite sure about the configuration of the system but I would like it to look a little like this:
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=752124&stc=1&d=1556188813
Of course I don't plan to leave directly on 2 "Walls" as in the picture, 1 is more than enough to start.
So here I am a little confused possibly about what box should I go for considering I want to play any music on my soundsystem..
For subs I heard about:
-The ES18BPH, I would like to go with 4 of these first and then 4 more.
-Also the 1850 Horn
-MHB46, but Is it good for house music.. ?
For tops I heard about several boxes :
- TA880 as in the picture but considering the new price (https://www.spectrumaudio.com/turbosound-ta-880h/) It's dead...
- Turbosound TMS4s precisely for the "balanced" sound but I don't think I'd have the money for it because they're rare and they're a little expensive. It's hard to find one like that on order.
-MSL4s from Meyer Sound in the same genre which are less rare this time but I don't know if it works totally in medium?
-MSL3s that are a little heavier but work really well and are not too hard to find apparently
(https://www.10kused.com/product/meyer-msl-3/) but is it worth buying them second-hand? It really doesn't seem very expensive for this kind of boxes...
-T3V, the plans are easily available, the most economical solution with MT130 but are they really efficient?
I have about 2500€ in 1 year and 2500 more in 2 years.
I would really like to do things cleanly and not'to the hilt' so that I can rent this system in the future.
The choice of the cabinets is crucial and that is why I need your help and valuable advice.
Thank you and have a good day.
I am a french student and I plan to start building a big sound system with friends. I have some sound basics because I have several friends in the Dub/reggae scene who have passive sound systems like 2 scoops + 1 kick + Pavilion, tweeter etc.
I have always been fascinated by the world of sound because my father is lucky enough to own a pair of Infinity Kappa 8s. It was with these speakers that I really started to appreciate the well tuned sound systems.
I would like to broadcast House mainly on my sound system but possibly other styles like funk, disco, rock. I'd like to build something powerful enough. I would like to know which cabinets are optimal for this kind of music for parties of up to 250 people outdoors. I was strongly advised to use the Turbosound housings which sound apparently very good (Never heard).
I'm not quite sure about the configuration of the system but I would like it to look a little like this:
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=752124&stc=1&d=1556188813
Of course I don't plan to leave directly on 2 "Walls" as in the picture, 1 is more than enough to start.
So here I am a little confused possibly about what box should I go for considering I want to play any music on my soundsystem..
For subs I heard about:
-The ES18BPH, I would like to go with 4 of these first and then 4 more.
-Also the 1850 Horn
-MHB46, but Is it good for house music.. ?
For tops I heard about several boxes :
- TA880 as in the picture but considering the new price (https://www.spectrumaudio.com/turbosound-ta-880h/) It's dead...
- Turbosound TMS4s precisely for the "balanced" sound but I don't think I'd have the money for it because they're rare and they're a little expensive. It's hard to find one like that on order.
-MSL4s from Meyer Sound in the same genre which are less rare this time but I don't know if it works totally in medium?
-MSL3s that are a little heavier but work really well and are not too hard to find apparently
(https://www.10kused.com/product/meyer-msl-3/) but is it worth buying them second-hand? It really doesn't seem very expensive for this kind of boxes...
-T3V, the plans are easily available, the most economical solution with MT130 but are they really efficient?
I have about 2500€ in 1 year and 2500 more in 2 years.
I would really like to do things cleanly and not'to the hilt' so that I can rent this system in the future.
The choice of the cabinets is crucial and that is why I need your help and valuable advice.
Thank you and have a good day.
Attachments
is the 2500 euro for the cabinets or does that also include all the associated electronics?
Size comes a lot into play as larger subwoofers can generate a greater SPL and or go lower than smaller subwoofers for a given driver. EG:
Another Hopeless Attempt At Reverse Engineering a Danley Design
If you want to do this well the first stage is to define a specification. For example what area do you want to cover and what SPL at what frequencies. From this you will get the coverage angles and output capabilities of your system which then defines what speakers you need. As you want to play house music I would would say you need to go lower than typical (-3dB 30Hz would work) and need to have a sub bass system that can run for extended periods of time with sine wave input (low peak to average ratio).
Size comes a lot into play as larger subwoofers can generate a greater SPL and or go lower than smaller subwoofers for a given driver. EG:
Another Hopeless Attempt At Reverse Engineering a Danley Design
If you want to do this well the first stage is to define a specification. For example what area do you want to cover and what SPL at what frequencies. From this you will get the coverage angles and output capabilities of your system which then defines what speakers you need. As you want to play house music I would would say you need to go lower than typical (-3dB 30Hz would work) and need to have a sub bass system that can run for extended periods of time with sine wave input (low peak to average ratio).
FWIW, a lot of the rigs you'll see on the dub/reggae scene are far from HiFi. They have a particular "sound" and if that's what you're after, that's fair enough.
2500EU is a fairly low budget to be working with - a rack of Behringer NX amps (the cheapest I'd go for serious use) will eat half of that.
For most venues, a 3-way system works just fine:
1 or 1.4" HF, 10-12" mids, 15-21" subs. If you want to go bigger, take a serious look at Nexo Alpha - that is a 4-way system that's carefully thought out, and has a lot of good engineering behind it.
While a big scary stack of speakers looks cool, I'd advise against it for now - if you spread your budget thinly across many cabinets, you'll have a big pile of boxes that can easily be matched with a smaller number of expensive cabinets.
For instance, compare a B&C 18SW115 against an Eminence Delta-Pro 18. The B&C unit can take 3x the power, and has about 3x the excursion - the one B&C driver can do the work of 3x Eminence drivers. Which one would you rather carry and move around?
Once you have a few good cabinets, you can add more as your budget grows.
Chris
2500EU is a fairly low budget to be working with - a rack of Behringer NX amps (the cheapest I'd go for serious use) will eat half of that.
For most venues, a 3-way system works just fine:
1 or 1.4" HF, 10-12" mids, 15-21" subs. If you want to go bigger, take a serious look at Nexo Alpha - that is a 4-way system that's carefully thought out, and has a lot of good engineering behind it.
While a big scary stack of speakers looks cool, I'd advise against it for now - if you spread your budget thinly across many cabinets, you'll have a big pile of boxes that can easily be matched with a smaller number of expensive cabinets.
For instance, compare a B&C 18SW115 against an Eminence Delta-Pro 18. The B&C unit can take 3x the power, and has about 3x the excursion - the one B&C driver can do the work of 3x Eminence drivers. Which one would you rather carry and move around?
Once you have a few good cabinets, you can add more as your budget grows.
Chris
Hello Guys,
Ok well let's forget about the budget, because I don't want to be limited any way
Let me explain I don't have much knowledge in sound. I'll go for a 3-way system, that is for sure.
Considering I want to play house music essentially but also every other kind of music,
I don't want the system to be particulary loud but enough for medium venues like 250 ppl in exterior. I'd like to have some resources in sub bass tho. I want a precise sound.
I heard about the MHB46 but I don't know if that's exaclty what I'm searching for bcs I don't know if it's precise..
I heard your piece of advice Chris. So what cabinets would you choose for a small system for every kind of music (But house essentially) ?
Ok well let's forget about the budget, because I don't want to be limited any way
Let me explain I don't have much knowledge in sound. I'll go for a 3-way system, that is for sure.
Considering I want to play house music essentially but also every other kind of music,
I don't want the system to be particulary loud but enough for medium venues like 250 ppl in exterior. I'd like to have some resources in sub bass tho. I want a precise sound.
I heard about the MHB46 but I don't know if that's exaclty what I'm searching for bcs I don't know if it's precise..
I heard your piece of advice Chris. So what cabinets would you choose for a small system for every kind of music (But house essentially) ?
IMO, a system shouldn't aim for a particular genre of music - a well-engineered system will play anything well, from solo soprano to dubstep.
My recommended system would actually be the one I use at the moment, although I am considering changing the HF drivers for something nicer:
HF: 18Sound ND1460 on an RCF HF94
MF: 2x Faital Pro 10FH520
LF: 4x Faital Pro 15HP1060
Per side. Powered by Powersoft T-series.
Now, the 15"s in the cabinets I'm using are pretty much flat to 40Hz. That works well for a lot of music, and it was a compromise I was happy with - bigger boxes would be required to get lower.
If I was going to be running lots of electronic music (dubstep etc), I'd be looking at 21" drivers in tapped horns. See the Orthorn for example. Those get another 10Hz of extension, which is required in some situations.
Chris
My recommended system would actually be the one I use at the moment, although I am considering changing the HF drivers for something nicer:
HF: 18Sound ND1460 on an RCF HF94
MF: 2x Faital Pro 10FH520
LF: 4x Faital Pro 15HP1060
Per side. Powered by Powersoft T-series.
Now, the 15"s in the cabinets I'm using are pretty much flat to 40Hz. That works well for a lot of music, and it was a compromise I was happy with - bigger boxes would be required to get lower.
If I was going to be running lots of electronic music (dubstep etc), I'd be looking at 21" drivers in tapped horns. See the Orthorn for example. Those get another 10Hz of extension, which is required in some situations.
Chris
1x B&C 18SW115 vs. 3x Eminence Delta-Pro 18?
3x 18" will always sound different than just a single one. More excursion means more distortion. In the bass the human ear is not very sensitive for distortion but you'll get power compression aswell which limits audible the dynamics and the heat of the VC increases the resistance and therefore the Qt. That means, the sound becomes mushy and boomy. And your driver won't live very long.
Then comes outdoors, that eats bass like hell. No roomgain. If you want the PA for outdoors, nothing is more important than cone surface. That means you'll always be better off with 3 cheap 18" per side instead of 1 expensive. For 250 ppl outdoors you can start with 8x 18" BR. Either later swap the drivers for better ones which work in the same enclosure or sell the subs and build new ones.
DO NOT MIX THE SUBS! and DON'T FORGET THE LOWCUT!!
If you want to go for horns, most types will need a minimum stack size of 4, I would not start below a 6x mono/center-stack. For the music you want to play, you need to reach at least 40Hz f3. The 1850 don't go even nearly as low as you need, even in a bigger stack (8-12x) you barely reach 50Hz, suggested cut off f is 54Hz.
The MHB46 are hybrid enclosures, they don't go deeper either. You could experiment with a longer port but don't expect them to keep the spl at 40 Hz if you tune them deeper, they won't be louder there than BR subs because, well, in the lower range they work as a BR. Most hybrid enclosures got (besides a minimum stack size) a maximum stack size, if you add more subs then the combined horn mouth reaches the upper end of the port frequencies and they cancel each other out.
Scoops can reach a very high spl even at low frequencies but are huge and truck space and handling is very bad. They also got a very distinctive sound, you'll recognize for sure it's not 'right' if you play something else than Raggae.
Usually it's much better sound wise to use 2 BR subs instead of one scoop, it will sound better and you can expect the same output and they are still smaller. That way you are more flexible and the overall sound is better. If you still want scoops or like their special sound, the 18" Superscooper are proven to work fine. Minimum stack size is 4, 6 is much better.
There are probably other horns that go deeper but they won't be smaller or you need a bigger stack size.
Another solution would be to use 2-way bass and to go for infras and kick bins (NOT the HD15! They are CRAP!) but that's expensive.
Outdoors often means you need a generator. That's a bigger problem than you think but that's OT here.
If nothing is more important than cone area, why aren't the big touring companies just using a big pile of £20 drivers?
Pushing any driver near to its limits will always make it show strain. My point is that the B&C driver could do the work of 3x Eminence drivers. It'll work out cheaper once wood is factored in, and will be a smaller cabinet, too.
Chris
That's very easy to answer. Because truck space is also important and expensive. Plus, the effort to wire it and set it up at the venue is extremely time consuming and you need much more rigging. Time is money, nowadays you don't have a week or two to set up a big concert. Eminence is a cheap driver but I know of no £20 drivers which are 18" or rugged enough, let alone got parameters for halfway small BR.
Exactly. The 3 Eminence will not be as nearly as much strained than the B&C. And if one fails, the redundancy is 'a little less loud' vs. 'no "loud" anymore'.
No, it cannot. Again, you are denying the power compression, that takes away ~2dB. But the more important thing is the air coupling, acoustical impedance is a thing. A single 18" doesn't load the air like 3 do. The air is 'shoved away', it sounds not nearly as forceful, punchy, that's why the stack size does matter.
There's also another big argument, you are more variable at the setup, you can do cardioid, endfire and other setups to get more directivity and bother less neighbours (yes, even a few km away it can be too loud in some cases).
Also, I did not say 'use a lot crap drivers'. The Eminence are cheap but still viable. The turning point comes when the truck space runs out or the space available does not allow more subs. If that point is reached, go for the more potent drivers which work in the same enclosure. You can sell the old drivers, reducing the cost greatly.
See, I did not say the B&C 18SW115 are bad but with the budget of 2500€ you cannot go for them, they are 500 each. The Eminence are around 200, that's still a problem. I'd rather suggest to use the 18-500 from the Thomann label 'the box', they are produced by Elder. They are just 139€ each with free shipping in many european countries.
Hey,
Ok thanks to you guys I think I understood some things. IGC as you can see in the beginning of the Thread I suggested 8 ES18BPH (These are kick/bass right?) which would have a good impact and get low enough for the type of music I want to play but in fact it is too expensive.
Also I don't want to get scoops I know their sound pretty well and its sounds good but only for reggae and that's not what I want.
What do you think about this setup:
2xMTB246 - With what driver inside ? (For now I suppose the suggested one on the plans) - should go about 42hz which I think is enough for a start. I See it goes
1xMid/Top suspended in the air at 2m50 of height. I suggest T3V of Marc.O plans: https://www.fichier-pdf.fr/2017/08/27/t3v-specifications-2-by-tristoon/t3v-specifications-2-by-tristoon.pdf(again suggested drivers on the plans)
With this setup, I should cover all the frequencies I need without problems. I'll buy cheap drivers first and then maybe greater driver but not now
Ok thanks to you guys I think I understood some things. IGC as you can see in the beginning of the Thread I suggested 8 ES18BPH (These are kick/bass right?) which would have a good impact and get low enough for the type of music I want to play but in fact it is too expensive.
Also I don't want to get scoops I know their sound pretty well and its sounds good but only for reggae and that's not what I want.
What do you think about this setup:
2xMTB246 - With what driver inside ? (For now I suppose the suggested one on the plans) - should go about 42hz which I think is enough for a start. I See it goes
1xMid/Top suspended in the air at 2m50 of height. I suggest T3V of Marc.O plans: https://www.fichier-pdf.fr/2017/08/27/t3v-specifications-2-by-tristoon/t3v-specifications-2-by-tristoon.pdf(again suggested drivers on the plans)
With this setup, I should cover all the frequencies I need without problems. I'll buy cheap drivers first and then maybe greater driver but not now
Uhm, the ES18BPH are doing kick, yes. But they are one-note cabins and they don't even remotely go as low as you need. As you can see, they got a massive peak at 70-80Hz and go down only to 60Hz. You have to add infras below 70Hz, 21" would be a match which will be extremely expensive, expect them to start with 500€, if you want high spl you'd likely need to spend 1k on each.
ES 18 BPH in Hornresp - Speakerplans.com Forums
The MTB246 got -8dB at 40Hz. You need the subs go FLAT to at least 40Hz. They will go down to 40Hz in a 8+ stack. Someone simulated it to reach 40Hz with just a 4-stack, though I've seen measurements of an 6 stack (later 8 ..or 10? don't remember how many he got later on) and it still didn't have -3 at 40Hz.
Aside from that, I would not build a double 18" since handling and truck space is really bad, build single ones (just the half of it), two of the single ones are acoustical and from the measurements identical to the double version. They are just so much easier to handle.
These are potent tops which can go surprisingly low, you could maybe get away with just infras below them if you don't go full power. Two things are important, they have to be driven active (no passive crossover) and your rigging has to be very sturdy, I guess they'll be probably 60kg each. No laughing matter if they come down and someone stands below them. Unless you want your sound to have a really heavy impact.
That's 120+180+50+30+80=460 + wood+paint (+200) + div parts like screws, handles, plugs, cables, fixtures for stacking, etc, that's then around 760-800€ per top, both 1600. Plus, you need a 7(sub mono)/8ch DSP (~500-800) and 6 chs amping for the tops (~500-900) and at least 2 sub amps. That's then 1600+500+500=2400€ for the 2 tops alone without sub drivers, enclosure wood/paint or sub amps. That's all your budget, isn't it?
You'll probably be better of with one of these:
JL-sat212 (LMT-212) - PA Topteil | Jobst-Audio - Tontechnik
JM-sat15 (MT-1514) - PA Fullrange Multifunktions-Topteil | Jobst-Audio - Tontechnik
http://www.jobst-audio.de/public-address/m-serie/115-jm-sat212
I would not suggest to buy at Jobst, he's known for delaying delivery for months and that's not exaggerated.
I'm using a symetrix symnet 8x8 DSP which I got for £100 ish. Its worthwhile investigating previous generation conference/stadium gear for sources of cheap and powerful DSP. Another cheap way to get DSP capability is to buy the Berhinger inuke/nx amps with DSP (powerful for the money but will not work well on generators). If you want easier setup and don't need the flexibility I would recommend getting amplifiers with DSP built in.
£100 is a very good price if not a steal. However, they don't have any knobs or display to set them up at the venue/location, you always need a computer, tablet etc to change the setup and a ethernet connection. They don't have standard symmetrical XLR or asymmetrical Cinch outputs either. And they run with 24V, you have to get a power supply in the rack too. It's easy to make an adapter panel but that costs too. If you can get hands on such a DSP for that price, go for it anyway.
the 8x8DSP has a built in power supply so runs from mains AC. The IO is standard 4dBu balanced (can be configured to different things as well) but on euro blocks. Quite easy to wire to XLR though, just chop some cables in half. Bad points are a very loud fan (not an issue at a rave) and need for RS232 connection to computer to configure. You can add controls like volume controls into the flow graph like software and map them to logical inputs but its definitely not plug and play. It took me a few hours just to get it to talk to the software via a USB->RS232 converter. ADCs/DACS are AKM and DSP is implemented using multiple Xilinx spartan 6. Overall build quality is commensurate with its multi thousand£ original price. I also have the cobranet expansion but haven't had time to play with it.
you need to bring your laptop to equalise your system surely
It does? It isn't this one?
If it isn't this one, it must be a much older model and there are not much used on the market. And the older model doesn't have FIR filters or limiting.
Who cares about the fan, if in doubt you can swap it for a few bucks, that's not the problem. I've already got very bad experience with USB-RS232 converters, very unreliable and often poops out exactly when you need it. You often can't resync if the usb hangs for a moment.
you need to bring your laptop to equalise your system surely
Yes, that is a must. A meas. mic and an external soundcard is needed too, some other controllers got their own measurement system or a mic in.
@KaliMero56: Do you have any PA equipment already? Any amps, mixer, laptop, etc? The budget is quite a challenge for these requirements if you have to start from zero. You need a mixer and a laptop or turntables and CD players as sound sources, dsp and amps, that's a requirement for all systems.
Attachments
Thank you again for your knowledge and your time ICG.
So let me explain I think MTB246 are fine about the handling cause I'm used to transport 18" scoops and its pretty much the same. (Plus I will have handgrips on them) Secondly I think I don't mind losing some dB at the beginning cause I will extend this system to 4 MTB or 2 stack of 3MTB later. I mean even if its not 100% efficient with 2 MTB and 1 T3V It is still ok... I will adjust on the dsp and volume to get a nice and clean sound.
Lets forget about the budget bcs I want to build this system over 3, maybe 5 years so I don't mind about that.
Also I don't want to buy cheap tops that I will sell in 1 year bcs I wont be satisfied with these.
Plus I cannot find your tops for sale anywhere on internet.
I think Its better to build a potent top as I will rent the system in the future and I don't want to be bored selling equipment.
Again I said I would go for 1 T3V first and not 2 directly. So It would be a lot cheaper for a start.
Some of my friends already have DSPs and Amping they can lend me (If it matches my system ofc) So I can buy it after I have got cabinets and drivers.
So let me explain I think MTB246 are fine about the handling cause I'm used to transport 18" scoops and its pretty much the same. (Plus I will have handgrips on them) Secondly I think I don't mind losing some dB at the beginning cause I will extend this system to 4 MTB or 2 stack of 3MTB later. I mean even if its not 100% efficient with 2 MTB and 1 T3V It is still ok...
I will adjust on the dsp and volume to get a nice and clean sound.Lets forget about the budget bcs I want to build this system over 3, maybe 5 years so I don't mind about that.
Also I don't want to buy cheap tops that I will sell in 1 year bcs I wont be satisfied with these.
Plus I cannot find your tops for sale anywhere on internet.
I think Its better to build a potent top as I will rent the system in the future and I don't want to be bored selling equipment.
Again I said I would go for 1 T3V first and not 2 directly. So It would be a lot cheaper for a start.
That's what actually most of the people do in France with T3V. It works perfectly fine with 4 instance 4 Double 18" like the MTB 246. No kick bins. Only subs and T3V.
Ahaha and of course my rigging will be sturdy
Some of my friends already have DSPs and Amping they can lend me (If it matches my system ofc) So I can buy it after I have got cabinets and drivers.
That looks great for rock or live events. -8dB and the highest excursion at 40Hz (which means you can't EQ it) doesn't make very happy at raggae, dub or house though. You have to set a very steep lowcut on this cab at ~50Hz. The Eminence isn't a bad choice and got a good price but the driver isn't the problem, the Cab is. Almost all high spl cabs can't go low enough. You can't cheat physics after all.
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