Hello All,
Moving into a new house, and will not have a lot of time to set up the living room properly for future audio and video. I have receivers and stereo amps, players, streamers, etc already, so just speakers I need help with.
I have 3 x Def Tech UIW RLS II inwalls new in the box, never listened to, that the wife will not allow on the living room wall. A link: http://www.definitivetechnology.com...rls-ii#Reviews.
I was thinking of mounting these on a baffle of approximately 9"" wide and building a plinth to mount the baffle on, for LCR combo, These units are completely sealed, so a quick and easy solution, with the proper baffle width. Separate subwoofers could be added as needed.
Then I started thinking about woofer type bass rather than subwoofer bass>>>>, so I would like some ideas on the following:
1. Keep the RLS II units and build bass bin for them.. Something along the lines of the Paul Carmody Sunflower speaker. Use the other RLSII for a center channel (ie: horizontal on a baffle)
2. Build the RLS II unit into a FAST/WAW enclosure with a helping larger woofer, again using extra RLSII for center channel.
3. Tear the RLSII apart, and build a brand new design, with the hope of enhancing the output of the drivers and PR's (ie: larger PR's, more box volume, etc).
Note: I do have some other small speakers I can use while thinking about these Def Tech units, so I will not be without music. I also have some Dayton drivers waiting for some projects (Peds or similar, and a larger version of Tritrix or the Sunflowers), once I have my workshop set up.
Looking forward to your comments and ideas, as I am just getting started on my journey into audio creation. I think this is why #3 appeals so much, as we all try to build a better mousetrap. I thank you for your time to help me.
If I choose the easy way: "Is a 9 inch wide baffle adequate for the sealed units.?
Myles McDonald
Moving into a new house, and will not have a lot of time to set up the living room properly for future audio and video. I have receivers and stereo amps, players, streamers, etc already, so just speakers I need help with.
I have 3 x Def Tech UIW RLS II inwalls new in the box, never listened to, that the wife will not allow on the living room wall. A link: http://www.definitivetechnology.com...rls-ii#Reviews.
I was thinking of mounting these on a baffle of approximately 9"" wide and building a plinth to mount the baffle on, for LCR combo, These units are completely sealed, so a quick and easy solution, with the proper baffle width. Separate subwoofers could be added as needed.
Then I started thinking about woofer type bass rather than subwoofer bass>>>>, so I would like some ideas on the following:
1. Keep the RLS II units and build bass bin for them.. Something along the lines of the Paul Carmody Sunflower speaker. Use the other RLSII for a center channel (ie: horizontal on a baffle)
2. Build the RLS II unit into a FAST/WAW enclosure with a helping larger woofer, again using extra RLSII for center channel.
3. Tear the RLSII apart, and build a brand new design, with the hope of enhancing the output of the drivers and PR's (ie: larger PR's, more box volume, etc).
Note: I do have some other small speakers I can use while thinking about these Def Tech units, so I will not be without music. I also have some Dayton drivers waiting for some projects (Peds or similar, and a larger version of Tritrix or the Sunflowers), once I have my workshop set up.
Looking forward to your comments and ideas, as I am just getting started on my journey into audio creation. I think this is why #3 appeals so much, as we all try to build a better mousetrap. I thank you for your time to help me.
If I choose the easy way: "Is a 9 inch wide baffle adequate for the sealed units.?
Myles McDonald
I checked the RLSII on their website and, indeed, they are two way passive radiator inwall speakers. That means, they have been designed with the assumption that they will be mounted flush with the wall, forming a very large and wide baffle.
Mounting these on a standalone baffle will make them operate in less than ideal conditions and that would take away some of the low frequency response, as well as alter dispersion. Perhaps, placing them against the wall would be a stop-gap solution. You could try that out and listen for yourself.
Mounting these on a standalone baffle will make them operate in less than ideal conditions and that would take away some of the low frequency response, as well as alter dispersion. Perhaps, placing them against the wall would be a stop-gap solution. You could try that out and listen for yourself.
Hi SaSi,
I understand about the baffle concepts. On a 6.5 " driver, I imagine that the baffle does not have to be that wide to be able to have some good sound, other wise there would not be any WmtmW towers being built. Remember that the people at DefTech manufactured a sealed speaker, that was not affected by being in a wall. So all one has to do is make the baffle wide enough to limit edge diffraction issues.
Regards
I understand about the baffle concepts. On a 6.5 " driver, I imagine that the baffle does not have to be that wide to be able to have some good sound, other wise there would not be any WmtmW towers being built. Remember that the people at DefTech manufactured a sealed speaker, that was not affected by being in a wall. So all one has to do is make the baffle wide enough to limit edge diffraction issues.
Regards
You don't have a clear understanding of the baffle step effect. DefTech designed a speaker to be mounted in a wall (flush mount). This means that the crossover and the balance between woofers and tweeter is designed for an infinite baffle (the wall where the speaker should be installed). Not doing so will result in an unbalanced speaker where the low midrange and bass is up to 6dB lower in SPL than the treble, and with moreover a large 2-3dB bump right in the midrange.
If you plan to install the speaker in free air, even if you slightly enlarge the baffle (from 7" to 9" as you suggest), you'll need to fully redesign the crossover (and lose 3-6dB of SPL as a result). If you want to keep the original crossover you need a baffle that is large enough to simulate the infinite baffle. I don't have access to tools right now, but probably you need something larger than 1m (40").
Ralf
If you plan to install the speaker in free air, even if you slightly enlarge the baffle (from 7" to 9" as you suggest), you'll need to fully redesign the crossover (and lose 3-6dB of SPL as a result). If you want to keep the original crossover you need a baffle that is large enough to simulate the infinite baffle. I don't have access to tools right now, but probably you need something larger than 1m (40").
Ralf
Got to agree with giralfino.
And here it is in visual form. You get about a 6dB loss in the low end and about a 2-3dB peak in the mids. Changing baffle width only changes the frequencies at which these things occur, it doesn't get rid of them. Even when you go as wide as 40".
1 - 8" x 30" baffle and a 5.5" driver at 20"
2 - 10" x 30" baffle and a 5.5" driver at 20"
3 - 20" x 30" baffle and a 5.5" driver at 20"
4 - 40" x 30" baffle and a 5.5" driver at 20"
Best to keep these in the walls or else do a re-design on the xo (with or without re-boxing them and changing the baffle dimensions).
And here it is in visual form. You get about a 6dB loss in the low end and about a 2-3dB peak in the mids. Changing baffle width only changes the frequencies at which these things occur, it doesn't get rid of them. Even when you go as wide as 40".
1 - 8" x 30" baffle and a 5.5" driver at 20"
2 - 10" x 30" baffle and a 5.5" driver at 20"
3 - 20" x 30" baffle and a 5.5" driver at 20"
4 - 40" x 30" baffle and a 5.5" driver at 20"
Best to keep these in the walls or else do a re-design on the xo (with or without re-boxing them and changing the baffle dimensions).
Attachments
Forget that
You could add mass to the woofer but...where we talking about a 6.5" driver ?!?Just check the crossover and post a picture of it too, to see how many turns and gauge the coil needs to be
what Jreave said
You could even eliminate the box by playing with tone controls
Or put it in-wall with an adiacent room
I do much prefer the freestanding solution as it implies phisical detatchement
of the two sources - I don't play with a central channel, which itself should be created ( in the head ) otherwise ...
So sealed units but not necessarily - Also open back, pyramidal, or spherical, half spherical ( the tweeter could stay outside the woofer chamber ) etc etc
Actually, upon further thought....... because these are such thin speakers (depthwise), I'm thinking maybe you could get away with mounting these directly on the wall and then let your AV receiver make the necessary eq adjustments. That's if your receiver does a good job with that.
And I guess if you could come up with a way to cover them up or disguise them that will still keep your wife happy. Acoustically transparent artwork with on a frame with equal depth?
And I guess if you could come up with a way to cover them up or disguise them that will still keep your wife happy. Acoustically transparent artwork with on a frame with equal depth?
Yes and (probably) no. While a redesign of the crossover should be feasible to allow for some BSC, changing the type of box (from closed to vented) requires that the bass drivers can properly work in a vented enclosure. To simulate a box you need to have T/S parameters, I highly doubt that you can obtain them without measuring yourself the drivers.
Ralf
Ralf
Passive radiators function exactly the same as ports - they both tune the box to a lower frequency than a sealed one. And they have the advantage over ports in that they don't chuff at excessive SPL. I'm not quite seeing the point in changing what you've got.
In terms of designing a new xo, that is easier said than done. Not impossible but it will take some heavy learning if you have never done it before. You'll need to actually measure the drivers in whatever box you decide to go with, simulate the xo and then usually fine tune it by ear. Although it is possible that if you can provide the measurements, someone here can simulate the xo for you.
Before that though, I think I would probably try them 1st where you want to put them and then let your AV do its work of EQing to make up for baffle step loss and see if they sound all right to your ears. Maybe that will work. Maybe it won't. If the outcome is positive, then I would simply wrap them in a thin new box to make them visually appealing but without changing anything else about the speakers.
In terms of designing a new xo, that is easier said than done. Not impossible but it will take some heavy learning if you have never done it before. You'll need to actually measure the drivers in whatever box you decide to go with, simulate the xo and then usually fine tune it by ear. Although it is possible that if you can provide the measurements, someone here can simulate the xo for you.
Before that though, I think I would probably try them 1st where you want to put them and then let your AV do its work of EQing to make up for baffle step loss and see if they sound all right to your ears. Maybe that will work. Maybe it won't. If the outcome is positive, then I would simply wrap them in a thin new box to make them visually appealing but without changing anything else about the speakers.
giralfino,
One of my goals is to get some driver measuring software, so I can find out what I am dealing with. Since these are sealed, would I perform the measurements as sealed, or open the speaker, remove the drivers and measure in free air?.
I will search the forum to see what people are using for measuring packages (ie: Dats, Arta, JB freeware, etc).
I can do this as a learning project on how to measure, design, and build a speaker. This is the part that gets the juices flowing. I have speakers I can use in the meantime, so no rush, just patient learning curve ahead for me.
MM
One of my goals is to get some driver measuring software, so I can find out what I am dealing with. Since these are sealed, would I perform the measurements as sealed, or open the speaker, remove the drivers and measure in free air?.
I will search the forum to see what people are using for measuring packages (ie: Dats, Arta, JB freeware, etc).
I can do this as a learning project on how to measure, design, and build a speaker. This is the part that gets the juices flowing. I have speakers I can use in the meantime, so no rush, just patient learning curve ahead for me.
MM
Don't know what a DML panel is. I was just thinking of some kind of thin material that won't change the front baffle dimensions too much. Whatever works for you. Since you'd still be using the speakers as is, the 'skin' that you wrap it in doesn't have to be very thick though. I did something like this once, repackaging a pair of floorstanding Sony's into bookshelf speakers for my sister. I just used 1/4" hardboard, wrapped them in speaker cloth sewn into something like a sock, and added painted top and bottom panels. Very similar to some of Deftech's other speakers actually. She found that look much more acceptable.
But you could of course build a whole new box and move the guts from the old ones to the new but you do have to get the internal volume pretty much exactly the same as the originals. Again keeping the front baffle dimensions as close to the originals as possible should help as well.
But you could of course build a whole new box and move the guts from the old ones to the new but you do have to get the internal volume pretty much exactly the same as the originals. Again keeping the front baffle dimensions as close to the originals as possible should help as well.
It depends on what you are measuring. Impedance (needed also for calculating T/S parameters) needs to be measured in free air at least once. For FR measure, you do it in the intended cabinet, so you'll measure also the diffraction that is generated by the baffle/box. Note that you need to exclude the crossover for both impedance and FR measures.
Ralf
This thread is getting confusing. I think I am going to convince the wife to do the inwalls. She is an artist and can paint and sculp very well.
Let me take this opportunity to ask you if I could cover these inwalls with transparent acoustic fabric rather than the metal covers provided. Although if the metal is painted in a mural, might look OK. The inwalls will be used as HT mostly, and I will pair with a sub, for low end. Just a 3.1 system. Thank you for your help, I have gained some knowledge.
MM
Let me take this opportunity to ask you if I could cover these inwalls with transparent acoustic fabric rather than the metal covers provided. Although if the metal is painted in a mural, might look OK. The inwalls will be used as HT mostly, and I will pair with a sub, for low end. Just a 3.1 system. Thank you for your help, I have gained some knowledge.
MM
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