Go Back   Home > Forums > >
Home Forums Rules Articles diyAudio Store Blogs Gallery Wiki Register Donations FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Which driver would you choose?
Which driver would you choose?
Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 12th April 2019, 12:28 AM   #1
gabdx is offline gabdx  Canada
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Default Which driver would you choose?

I entered a table with drivers parameters, unfortunately I cant enter the response but I rated the responses from the ones that can be used without corrections to the ones which are almost impossible to correct the response.

The idea is to select a driver for maximum dynamics, resolution and true frequency response for the midrange of a 3 way.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Clipboard01.jpg (287.2 KB, 522 views)
__________________
amplificateurslegrand.ca

Last edited by gabdx; 12th April 2019 at 12:35 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12th April 2019, 12:46 AM   #2
ICG is offline ICG  Germany
diyAudio Member
 
ICG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: I had a Déjà Moo - I've seen that BS before!
Quote:
Originally Posted by gabdx View Post
The idea is to select a driver for maximum dynamics, resolution and true frequency response
-You can't select a driver for maximum dynamics if you don't know for which f-range it's going to be used.

-You can't select a driver for maximum dynamics if you don't know its distortion, you have to measure it.

-You can't select a driver for maximum dynamics if you don't know its power capabilities.

-You can't select a driver for maximum frequency response if you don't know ..the frequency response.. - you have to measure it.

-You can't select a driver for maximum frequency response if you don't know the dispersion pattern or what it's used for.

-You can't select a driver for maximum resolution if you don't know the f-response, impulse response, distortion on low and high spl

-You can't select a driver for maximum frequency response if you have to use maximum dynamics because the great excurse limits greatly the f-band you can use it up to (that applies to the upper aswell as the lower end).

-You can't select a driver for maximum dynamic without knowing what enclosure type and size you can/want to use. Or the room size.

-You can't select a driver purely from the parameters.

-You can't select a driver without knowing its partners (unless it's a fullrange but it's probably not one since this is the multi-way forum).
__________________
I had a Déjà Moo - I've seen that BS before!
  Reply With Quote
Old 12th April 2019, 01:42 AM   #3
gabdx is offline gabdx  Canada
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
The woofer or sub is taking care of low end
All drivers specs have acceptable THDs
All drivers specs have good power ability from 30 watts to 300 watts, all acceptable due to sensitivity , 30 watts at 92 db and 100 watts at 88 is equivalents, so they all play acceptable to modern home standards, not for PA.

The Fq response I which I could put all the graphs, but I resumed to a simple description with drivers which don't need any XO corrections to those which cannot be corrected and will be not flat, in the middle there are those with just a small bump or dip which is easy to fix and those with 2 or 3 defects and those with very complicated to fix responses.

The partners are not a concern right now. Just the most critical sound from 100 hz to 2000hz , lets presume the bass is taken care off and a great tweeter can cover from 2khz.

(ps. as diys we have to choose at one point on parameters, review, kits etc., I have been in a room with all the B&W models from the low end to the 805D 804, 803, 802 and the PSB most expensive towers, I listened to each speaker with my reference materials, however this is not how you can do with DIY, get like 12 expensive speakers with their matching tweeter and woofers with best enclosures and 100 years of XO matching in anechoic chamber and then pick your poison to build... we have to look at parameters and make compromises like : active XO, complex passive XO, simple XO with ragged Fq, or just a bad speaker, and go to the next build!)

Just from the parameters...
__________________
amplificateurslegrand.ca

Last edited by gabdx; 12th April 2019 at 01:48 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12th April 2019, 02:28 AM   #4
ICG is offline ICG  Germany
diyAudio Member
 
ICG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: I had a Déjà Moo - I've seen that BS before!
Quote:
Originally Posted by gabdx View Post
The woofer or sub is taking care of low end
All drivers specs have acceptable THDs
All drivers specs have good power ability from 30 watts to 300 watts, all acceptable due to sensitivity , 30 watts at 92 db and 100 watts at 88 is equivalents, so they all play acceptable to modern home standards, not for PA.
Well, that would not meet my idea of maximum dynamics. At all. And there you have it already, completely different standards. If I think about a speaker with maximum dynamic, I'd start at being capable of 110dB at least. Not that I often listen to that spl, rather the opposite but a maximum dynamic speaker has to be able to reproduce that spl and not cut of the peaks (because that happens already much earlier).

Quote:
Originally Posted by gabdx View Post
The Fq response I which I could put all the graphs, but I resumed to a simple description with drivers which don't need any XO corrections to those which cannot be corrected and will be not flat, in the middle there are those with just a small bump or dip which is easy to fix and those with 2 or 3 defects and those with very complicated to fix responses.
You cannot recognize how a driver sounds from the specs and data alone. Dips can only be 'fixed' by an complex active setup or DSP. You did not mention that you'd use one in the post before. But more importantly, you can neither fix the dispersion pattern nor the distortion levels with a DSP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gabdx View Post
The partners are not a concern right now. Just the most critical sound from 100 hz to 2000hz , lets presume the bass is taken care off and a great tweeter can cover from 2khz.
Yes, they are of concern. You can't use a bass driver that's louder than the tweeter in a passive setup because you'd change (increase) the the Q-factor if you introduce serial resistors. Besides the fact that it gives you a noticable up to a quite ugly bump, a lot of resolution is lost that way.

To the human ear, 100Hz is still not critical, that starts one or one and a half octaves higher. For best dynamics, resolution and sound quality I would not use 100Hz XO and go slightly higher. Around 100Hz is a mark for the xo of sat and sub though. But you did not mention that either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gabdx View Post
(ps. as diys we have to choose at one point on parameters, review, kits etc., I have been in a room with all the B&W models from the low end to the 805D 804, 803, 802 and the PSB most expensive towers, I listened to each speaker with my reference materials, however this is not how you can do with DIY, get like 12 expensive speakers with their matching tweeter and woofers with best enclosures and 100 years of XO matching in anechoic chamber and then pick your poison to build... we have to look at parameters and make compromises like : active XO, complex passive XO, simple XO with ragged Fq, or just a bad speaker, and go to the next build!)

Just from the parameters...
The B&W 805D is expensive but not a good speaker. Have you ever heard them? Or seen measurements? The price tag was never granting good sound quality.


Which driver would you choose?-20630-max_bw_diamond_lab-jpg

measurements from audio.com.pl
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20630-max_bw_diamond_lab.jpg (54.8 KB, 1076 views)
__________________
I had a Déjà Moo - I've seen that BS before!
  Reply With Quote
Old 12th April 2019, 02:56 AM   #5
gabdx is offline gabdx  Canada
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICG View Post
Well, that would not meet my idea of maximum dynamics. At all. And there you have it already, completely different standards. If I think about a speaker with maximum dynamic, I'd start at being capable of 110dB at least. Not that I often listen to that spl, rather the opposite but a maximum dynamic speaker has to be able to reproduce that spl and not cut of the peaks (because that happens already much earlier).



You cannot recognize how a driver sounds from the specs and data alone. Dips can only be 'fixed' by an complex active setup or DSP. You did not mention that you'd use one in the post before. But more importantly, you can neither fix the dispersion pattern nor the distortion levels with a DSP.



Yes, they are of concern. You can't use a bass driver that's louder than the tweeter in a passive setup because you'd change (increase) the the Q-factor if you introduce serial resistors. Besides the fact that it gives you a noticable up to a quite ugly bump, a lot of resolution is lost that way.

To the human ear, 100Hz is still not critical, that starts one or one and a half octaves higher. For best dynamics, resolution and sound quality I would not use 100Hz XO and go slightly higher. Around 100Hz is a mark for the xo of sat and sub though. But you did not mention that either.



The B&W 805D is expensive but not a good speaker. Have you ever heard them? Or seen measurements? The price tag was never granting good sound quality.


Which driver would you choose?-20630-max_bw_diamond_lab-jpg

measurements from audio.com.pl
If you read my post : I have been in a room with all the B&W models from the low end to the 805D 804, 803, 802 and the PSB most expensive towers, I listened to each speaker with my reference materials,

I never saw the response curve of the 805D until now, thank you for that, this confirms what I heard, very vivid details, but it was not unpleasant, just too much to impress a first listener. But I have to say that it is a good speaker and sounds better than the lesser models from B&W, the 804, 803 and 802 adds bass, they are all good, the 804 is very reserved, the 803 more neutral and the 802 is very fun to listen to the bass which is very dry. I didn't listen to the 802 with the best amps, which were NAD.
__________________
amplificateurslegrand.ca
  Reply With Quote
Old 12th April 2019, 01:25 PM   #6
nipper1 is offline nipper1  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Take a close look at the SB Acoustics Satori line. I am using a MR16P-4 and really love it. I am using it almost fullrange (no filter on the low end at all) with a BW2 low-pass at 7400 Hz. OBVIOUSLY, most people would never use a 6 inch "midrange" driver that high up but it sounds like a fullrange driver so it's not as ridiculous as many might imagine it to be. Regardless, it will easily do your intended frequency band (I don't know about the maximum SPL). In fact, you might even consider the MW16P Satori which is a mid-bass driver for no higher than your crossover; the voice coil is longer so it will take way more power than the MR "midrange". For the money, the Satori line is very hard to beat (for high performance/relatively low cost)!
  Reply With Quote
Old 12th April 2019, 06:20 PM   #7
mbrennwa is offline mbrennwa  Switzerland
diyAudio Member
 
mbrennwa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Zurich, Switzerland
Quote:
Originally Posted by gabdx View Post
Just the most critical sound from 100 hz to 2000hz , lets presume the bass is taken care off and a great tweeter can cover from 2khz.
I would take a look at the B+C drivers (5" or 6.5") and Scan Speak (12/15/18cm size). I am a sucker for the Scan 8545 midwoofer.
__________________
------
Group buy for augerpro waveguides for Scan Speak tweeters here
  Reply With Quote
Old 13th April 2019, 05:30 AM   #8
jmproductions is offline jmproductions  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
I think maybe you are looking at drivers that tend to be more woofers than midwoofers, and since you don't need to play below 100hz, you could look at something more mid focused. Typically a driver that resonates below 50-60hz uses less controlled mass to produce LF. However if I'm forced to pick from your list without looking at FR graphs, I think the #9 Alnico is the most interesting. The high efficiency is indicative of a strong Bl/Mms ratio. The Xmax is a little low so you will need a strong high pass to limit the excursion but this driver should play the freq range you desire very accurately. It probably does not have a very flat FR but this is the trade off usually for cone control. In general you want: low inductance or you will see more high freq roll off, low Qes and high Qms for a more midrange driver. I agree the ScanSpeaks are great drivers and should be considered.
  Reply With Quote
Old 13th April 2019, 07:59 AM   #9
ICG is offline ICG  Germany
diyAudio Member
 
ICG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: I had a Déjà Moo - I've seen that BS before!
Quote:
Originally Posted by gabdx View Post
If you read my post : I have been in a room with all the B&W models from the low end to the 805D 804, 803, 802 and the PSB most expensive towers, I listened to each speaker with my reference materials,
I asked if you've heard them because you made it sound like they would be some kind of goal to reach - which I found a bit ..surprising..

Quote:
Originally Posted by gabdx View Post
I never saw the response curve of the 805D until now, thank you for that, this confirms what I heard, very vivid details, but it was not unpleasant, just too much to impress a first listener. But I have to say that it is a good speaker and sounds better than the lesser models from B&W, the 804, 803 and 802 adds bass, they are all good, the 804 is very reserved, the 803 more neutral and the 802 is very fun to listen to the bass which is very dry. I didn't listen to the 802 with the best amps, which were NAD.
Well, a speaker has to perform on several criteria to be a long term good speaker and not just impress with some sensational effects because that becomes annoying or wearing pretty quickly. I've seen a lot of ppl were impressed by a short listening session and immediately buying speakers (among them B&W) and after a while they realized it's not the fidelity they really wanted. In the end they were frustrated and bought other speakers and the game repeats until they realize they need more criteria to be fulfilled to get 'their' speaker. The way you describe the B&W fleet reminds me a lot on that and the way you want to find the 'best' driver (via parameters and kinda vote) supports that pretty much unfortunately.

The problem is, that way you won't find it because you are looking at the wrong criteria. It's much better to look for a concept you like and/or for drivers match on your most important criteria. For me ie, it's mostly about realistic dynamics, room impression, resolution, homogeneity. Even if tonality isn't criteria #1 for me (dynamics is), a jump of 8dB in the response in less than an octave in the critical range of 2,5-4kHz poses a clean 'fail' to me.
Okay, I'm not the reference (and I wouldn't want that at all) and I don't want to convince you to follow others' preferences but you have to become sure about what you want and what your most important criteria are and where you're willing to take a compromise, ie size, price etc and where not (room, WAF, fullrange or multi-way, design, whatever, just examples). I'm sure, if you realize what your criteria are, what you most like and dislike in a speaker, at least the half of the drivers you've listed in the table would immediately fall off the list.
__________________
I had a Déjà Moo - I've seen that BS before!
  Reply With Quote
Old 13th April 2019, 12:38 PM   #10
gabdx is offline gabdx  Canada
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
ICG, you are reading my mind, my criteria is a good FQ response to suit my taste, but I need dynamics, details, maybe I can sacrifice dynamics because I have so many amplifiers within hands reach which can match the speakers.

JM likes more #9, however #5 has a slightly less difficult response, smaller and double cone mass, SAME specified suspension and magnet force, it loses sensitivity 2x less sensitive for a slightly better FQ response.

The #9 i never heard it, the #5 is similar to what they use in Pro-ac Resp D48 which is good to me: very realistic decay, attack is super.
__________________
amplificateurslegrand.ca
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Which driver would you choose?Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What would You choose? (HT driver selection) Malium Multi-Way 21 20th July 2017 09:31 PM
Need help to choose a new driver killmister Full Range 15 6th December 2016 11:49 AM
Box type for driver, how do you choose? mikee55 Subwoofers 23 24th March 2007 12:52 PM
Don't know which driver to choose ChrisJee Subwoofers 11 14th November 2006 05:30 PM
How to choose a driver ? gtb Multi-Way 3 18th April 2005 01:22 AM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 05:51 PM.


Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Resources saved on this page: MySQL 15.00%
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ©1999-2019 diyAudio
Wiki