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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Which driver would you choose?
Which driver would you choose?
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Old 13th April 2019, 02:42 PM   #11
mbrennwa is offline mbrennwa  Switzerland
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As I understand it, the dynamics of a speaker are hardly determined by the amplifier. At high cone excursion, dynamics are limited by the linear range of the voice coil excursion (Xmax). At low excursion, dynamics are limited by the mechanical losses (Qms), which tend to be non-linear at low cone excursion.

In general, I don't understand your approach of designing a loudspeaker. A good speaker is the result of a good system design, where the system is good at doing those things that you want from the speaker. Looking at single drivers only does not seem right to me (except if the speaker is going to be a single-driver design). I'd suggest you make a list of things that your speaker must do well, and others that are not important (here's an example). This will help a lot to guide your design.
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Old 13th April 2019, 03:23 PM   #12
ICG is offline ICG  Germany
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Originally Posted by mbrennwa View Post
As I understand it, the dynamics of a speaker are hardly determined by the amplifier. At high cone excursion, dynamics are limited by the linear range of the voice coil excursion (Xmax). At low excursion, dynamics are limited by the mechanical losses (Qms), which tend to be non-linear at low cone excursion.
That describes it pretty good, there are just two things missing. The first thing is, the distortion is very important. Especally k3 and k5 are harsh sounding and can appear in some frequency range even if the Xmax is not reached at all. It's of no use if there are distortion peaks (especally k3 and k5) appearing above a certain spl.

The second thing is the voice coil size which results in different power limits. And it's of no use if the Xmax is high but the driver got such a low spl that it needs tons of power and goes into power compression. Or if the crossover coils become saturated. In general, amps sound a lot better well below their maximum power too. Or if the amp of choice only got a low power output (Tube amps anyone?), then you have ditch all the Xmax monsters with just 83dB spl.

A lot of small sat speakers and subwoofers can't reproduce authentic, dynamic drums, no matter how much power you are pumping into them.

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Originally Posted by mbrennwa View Post
In general, I don't understand your approach of designing a loudspeaker. A good speaker is the result of a good system design, where the system is good at doing those things that you want from the speaker. Looking at single drivers only does not seem right to me (except if the speaker is going to be a single-driver design).
I see it the same way. And even if you take the best woofer and the best tweeter, it's still not sounding good if the sound characteristics don't fit together, like some aluminium cone woofers paired with silk dome tweeters (not all are a mismatch though) or a super clean ribbon with a full range driver.

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I'd suggest you make a list of things that your speaker must do well, and others that are not important (here's an example). This will help a lot to guide your design.
That's exactly what I mean!
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Old 13th April 2019, 03:51 PM   #13
ICG is offline ICG  Germany
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I forgot one very important point: A high excursion and high bandwidth don't go well with each other, it produces intermodulation distortion. A typical conflict of interest. To solve that, a larger membrane surface is needed, which in turn causes beaming at lower frequencies than a smaller driver and impacts the choice of the tweeter. Those are not the only opposing criteria.
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Old 13th April 2019, 03:51 PM   #14
sesebe is offline sesebe  Romania
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Originally Posted by gabdx View Post
I entered a table with drivers parameters, unfortunately I cant enter the response but I rated the responses from the ones that can be used without corrections to the ones which are almost impossible to correct the response.

The idea is to select a driver for maximum dynamics, resolution and true frequency response for the midrange of a 3 way.
None of them is a dedicated driver for mids.
You need a mid driver not a midwoofer driver. According with this you can exclude the 10in and maybe 8in drivers.
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Old 13th April 2019, 04:38 PM   #15
nipper1 is offline nipper1  United States
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None of them is a dedicated driver for mids.
You need a mid driver not a midwoofer driver. According with this you can exclude the 10in and maybe 8in drivers.

SB Acoustics :: 61/2” SATORI MR16P-4

This is what I am using in one of my systems. Designed by former Scan-Speak Engineers; these are probably as good as the Illuminator series; they certainly have similar desirable design and build characteristics. As I said before; I am unsure of the maximum SPL. These sound as good to me as just about any driver I have ever heard; certainly not perfect but they out perform just about anything else out there especially when you consider the price range. Others have had similar listening experiences with these and have also given very favorable results. Because they have a shorter voice coil than their MW mid-bass stable mates; the transient response and higher frequencies are more mid or even full-range like than most any woofer would likely be. Just for what it's worth; certainly deserves serious consideration... Cheers!
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Old 13th April 2019, 07:48 PM   #16
gabdx is offline gabdx  Canada
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Satori , What do you do with the raise at 600 to 900 hz?
What do you do with the dip at 1200hz?

I wonder also why the suspension is so lose 2.53mm/N is very lose.
Maybe it is a stereotype: wouldn't it be the opposite goal of a midrange?
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Old 13th April 2019, 10:07 PM   #17
nipper1 is offline nipper1  United States
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Originally Posted by gabdx View Post
Satori , What do you do with the raise at 600 to 900 hz?
What do you do with the dip at 1200hz?

I wonder also why the suspension is so lose 2.53mm/N is very lose.
Maybe it is a stereotype: wouldn't it be the opposite goal of a midrange?
The response sounds very flat to my ears; I do not notice any peaks or dips when listening to music of many different kinds. The MW mid-bass version has not as smooth of a response as the MR midrange. There were some refinements made from the MW to the MR but maybe they left the suspension alone? I read somewhere the gluing technique was improved for the MR version. Anyway; Most people that have reported on the midrange version can not detect any anomalies whatsoever.
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Old 14th April 2019, 12:56 AM   #18
jmproductions is offline jmproductions  United States
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JM likes more #9, however #5 has a slightly less difficult response, smaller and double cone mass, SAME specified suspension and magnet force, it loses sensitivity 2x less sensitive for a slightly better FQ response.
Exactly and my bet is #5 will play lower than #9 so if you're looking for more punchy low end this is your choice. All of the drivers you've chosen seem quite capable but most are designed to get low enough to not need a sub. The only ones I don't like are 1, 2 and 10 because of the Qes
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Old 14th April 2019, 03:40 AM   #19
ICG is offline ICG  Germany
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Originally Posted by gabdx View Post
Satori , What do you do with the raise at 600 to 900 hz?
The frequency response in an enclosure is pretty much dependent on the baffle size (-> baffle step (there might be other helpful links) and placement on it, so there has to be some kind of equalization anyway.

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Originally Posted by gabdx View Post
What do you do with the dip at 1200hz?
The human ear is not sensitive to narrow dips, peaks however, are perceived very quickly and as quite an impact on the SQ. With the correct baffle size dips can be 'filled'.

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I wonder also why the suspension is so lose 2.53mm/N is very lose.
Maybe it is a stereotype: wouldn't it be the opposite goal of a midrange?
Why? For a midrange the suspension copilance is not very important since the midrange drivers aren't used at their fs. There are quite some midrange drivers with 'soft' suspension to lower the resonance frequency and extend the lower usable frequency range. That's mostly only important to real high spl/high dynamics midrange drivers (none of which you did include in the table, i.e. the 8MC50ND8 or the 6MCF20ND8 or TF0818MR/).
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Old 14th April 2019, 04:29 AM   #20
gabdx is offline gabdx  Canada
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That's mostly only important to real high spl/high dynamics midrange drivers (none of which you did include in the table, i.e. the 8MC50ND8 or the 6MCF20ND8 or TF0818MR/).
Yes, ICG you have a good knowledge, only the 10' (#8) has a very stiff suspension and can play at high levels.

Isn't it true that when you have 'dips' everything else becomes a peak

I don't like are 1, 2 and 10 because of the Qes

What is the problem with high Qes? because I want to use the drivers in the optimal box, closed or vented; driver 1 has a Qts of 0.44, the suspension is mostly dictating the sound;#2is very puzzling to me because it has less sensitivity, maybe the alnico magnet is the determinant factor in construction between 1 and 2?

#10 is a driver specific for midrange with stiff suspension perfect for a closed box, and it has a no problem XO, just needs baffle compensation , impedance filter and 2nd order high/low pass
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