Thanks for your comments and ideas.
I've been digging deeper and what I found out - telling long story short - that going with 8PE21 will propably cause a lot of work to get it higher in the frequency. It is praised for its horn response but rather from about 100-150 Hz and nobody really cares about the response above 1000Hz. Well, I do...
So what I will do is having a fullrange 8'', something like TB 1772 or DA PS220. I got some info from people using them like that and they seemed to be very happy with the concept. I even managed to find some project with some measurements and it looked very promising. The guy had quite good response in 250-5000 Hz and the horn mouth is (more or less) as big as that of my prototype and it's a tractrix. That would be my way I think.
New Horn Project 23" Tractrix - Technical/Modifications - The Klipsch Audio Community
I've been digging deeper and what I found out - telling long story short - that going with 8PE21 will propably cause a lot of work to get it higher in the frequency. It is praised for its horn response but rather from about 100-150 Hz and nobody really cares about the response above 1000Hz. Well, I do...
So what I will do is having a fullrange 8'', something like TB 1772 or DA PS220. I got some info from people using them like that and they seemed to be very happy with the concept. I even managed to find some project with some measurements and it looked very promising. The guy had quite good response in 250-5000 Hz and the horn mouth is (more or less) as big as that of my prototype and it's a tractrix. That would be my way I think.
New Horn Project 23" Tractrix - Technical/Modifications - The Klipsch Audio Community
Why an 8" with whizzer?
From 250Hz - 2kHz, the TB looks like a hot mess:Tang Band W8-1772 Fullrange Loudspeaker Measurements Data and Information Full Range
The Lowther + Azura AH-160 is a similar driver+horn configuration, and the FR plot shows roughly the same 15dB hole:
Azurahorn -Le Cleac'h Acoustic Horns - Products
If your goal is 250Hz - 2kHz, and no/simple EQ, I think that a configuration with a big dip in the middle is a bad idea.
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This, IMO, looks better - an easy DIY project with a cheap pro driver. The response looks good (with simple EQ) for another octave: the first big dip is at about 1.6kHz.
I think any stiff-coned driver in the 4-6" range (with the horn throat suitably scaled) would be OK.
From 250Hz - 2kHz, the TB looks like a hot mess:Tang Band W8-1772 Fullrange Loudspeaker Measurements Data and Information Full Range
When I look at the project's plot showing on axis, 15, and 30 degrees off axis, I notice that, relative to 300Hz, there is a 10-15dB hole at 800Hz (image attached)
The Lowther + Azura AH-160 is a similar driver+horn configuration, and the FR plot shows roughly the same 15dB hole:
Azurahorn -Le Cleac'h Acoustic Horns - Products
If your goal is 250Hz - 2kHz, and no/simple EQ, I think that a configuration with a big dip in the middle is a bad idea.
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This, IMO, looks better - an easy DIY project with a cheap pro driver. The response looks good (with simple EQ) for another octave: the first big dip is at about 1.6kHz.
I think any stiff-coned driver in the 4-6" range (with the horn throat suitably scaled) would be OK.
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Hollowboy,
Unfortunately you are right... The dip is there.
However, looking at the response of the PRV driver you can conclude that the dip around 1600Hz is pretty much the same (no eq). And what I can tell from my experience that you propably will find it more annoying than that 800Hz one.
I know that it's not a perfect (or even good) solution nevertheless my horn is not a round one and I can experiment with the lenght or the throat size... the hope is still there...
From the other hand: in the old thread: Midbass horn Mr POOH provided the measurement of B&C 6PEV13 in 180Hz, 2'' throat horn and that is what you can call the response: plus minus 2dB from the average within 300-2k (attached).
I never liked the midrange from 6-7'' drivers though...
Unfortunately you are right... The dip is there.
However, looking at the response of the PRV driver you can conclude that the dip around 1600Hz is pretty much the same (no eq). And what I can tell from my experience that you propably will find it more annoying than that 800Hz one.
I know that it's not a perfect (or even good) solution nevertheless my horn is not a round one and I can experiment with the lenght or the throat size... the hope is still there...
From the other hand: in the old thread: Midbass horn Mr POOH provided the measurement of B&C 6PEV13 in 180Hz, 2'' throat horn and that is what you can call the response: plus minus 2dB from the average within 300-2k (attached).
I never liked the midrange from 6-7'' drivers though...
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If a dip is near the edge of the desired pass band, you can move the crossover point slightly. If it is right in the middle, the fix is a bit trickier.
He's tried a lot of combinations. That one looks good - probably not for a room / user like me, but great for a very dedicated, focused listening space.
Even when used as pure mids (not midbass)? Why is that?
Hello apolinary.
I see you came across my thread/s. I also found it difficult to get to something that would look good on paper/sims. The tests I did with Faital M5N12 in horns were good but I couldn't get to 2kHz xo. I think it's connected with that driver in particular.
Then I also struggled with the center-to-center distance between such a large midrange (horn) and a large tweeter (in my case a TPL-150H) at 2kHz and the probable lobbing issues that would generate.
At the end of the day I was going in circles so decided to build the midbass first and have subs + midbass + tweeters and then experiment with different midranges approaches. But, alas, work got in the way So I'm very delayed.
Other midrange solutions I've toyed with: 8" full range driver as direct radiator or with waveguide, 2" compression driver plus horn (from Pooh), array of 3" direct radiators. Need to experiment.
Please keep us posted with your exploration!
I see you came across my thread/s. I also found it difficult to get to something that would look good on paper/sims. The tests I did with Faital M5N12 in horns were good but I couldn't get to 2kHz xo. I think it's connected with that driver in particular.
Then I also struggled with the center-to-center distance between such a large midrange (horn) and a large tweeter (in my case a TPL-150H) at 2kHz and the probable lobbing issues that would generate.
At the end of the day I was going in circles so decided to build the midbass first and have subs + midbass + tweeters and then experiment with different midranges approaches. But, alas, work got in the way
So I'm very delayed.Other midrange solutions I've toyed with: 8" full range driver as direct radiator or with waveguide, 2" compression driver plus horn (from Pooh), array of 3" direct radiators. Need to experiment.
Please keep us posted with your exploration!
You may call it bad luck!
I contacted the B&C distributor and they told me that 6PEV13 was a very rare animal and they didn't have any of them in stock. If requested today they gonna be available propably in June, they have to be manufactured in the next batch. So I passed.
Welcome to the selection again!
Let's say we are sticking to the 6,5'' route.
I read and read and came to the conclusion that I would choose from the two below:
1. 18sound 6ND410
2. Beyma 605ND
I think the 18sound is a tad better for horn aplication (steep rising response). However, it may be difficult to make it play from 250 - 300Hz with correct volume (the "naked" curve shows 90dB at 300Hz). The beyma is more even, but maybe too even and the upper frequency range will be not loud enough...
Which one would you choose for 250 (300) - 2000 Hz range?
I contacted the B&C distributor and they told me that 6PEV13 was a very rare animal and they didn't have any of them in stock. If requested today they gonna be available propably in June, they have to be manufactured in the next batch. So I passed.
Welcome to the selection again!
Let's say we are sticking to the 6,5'' route.
I read and read and came to the conclusion that I would choose from the two below:
1. 18sound 6ND410
2. Beyma 605ND
I think the 18sound is a tad better for horn aplication (steep rising response). However, it may be difficult to make it play from 250 - 300Hz with correct volume (the "naked" curve shows 90dB at 300Hz). The beyma is more even, but maybe too even and the upper frequency range will be not loud enough...
Which one would you choose for 250 (300) - 2000 Hz range?
JBL 8” CMCD
To cover 250Hz to 2000Hz the JBL CMCD-82 8" dual coil differential drive midrange with JBL's phase plug has good reviews.
JBL Progressive TransitionTM (PT) Waveguides.
PT-K95MH waveguide (90° x 50°, 18 x 18in, rotatable.
PT-K64MH Mid-High Frequency 60° x 40° rotatable
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JMLC 200
Uses 8” driver
38” Diameter
24.4” Deep
To cover 250Hz to 2000Hz the JBL CMCD-82 8" dual coil differential drive midrange with JBL's phase plug has good reviews.
JBL Progressive TransitionTM (PT) Waveguides.
PT-K95MH waveguide (90° x 50°, 18 x 18in, rotatable.
PT-K64MH Mid-High Frequency 60° x 40° rotatable
------
JMLC 200
Uses 8” driver
38” Diameter
24.4” Deep
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Having some spare time I came with an idea of making more measurements, using drivers I had. One of them, Seas ERX18, ended with a quite nice response curve. As you can see pretty good from ~200Hz up to 5k. Playing music with that combo that's another story
Another example of that common wisdom saying that there's quite a long way from good measuring driver to good sounding speaker...
It's an illustrative example indeed, though far from surprising.
Rubber roll surrounds... I tend to avoid those at any cost.
FLHs require a strong motor, stiff suspension and ditto cone.
