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Is it possible to cover the whole spectrum, high spl, low distortion with a 2-way?
Is it possible to cover the whole spectrum, high spl, low distortion with a 2-way?
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Old 20th September 2021, 10:50 AM   #7901
docali is offline docali  Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paul7052 View Post
Shouldn't private matters remain private?
Yes, indeed! I don't like this. But camplo even published screenshots of private mails with John@AE. Maybe we should tell him again that this could be a serious issue.

It is generally a normal thing that conversations end somewhere because someone thinks everything is said. There is a life (job, family, etc.) beyond our hobby for most of us and spare time is very often limited.

There is also no requirement that everyone always has to share everything.
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Old 20th September 2021, 12:06 PM   #7902
paul7052 is online now paul7052  United States
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Originally Posted by Mazza View Post
G'day Paul,
If you pop over to the Ath4 thread you'll find you can create perhaps some of the best possible waveguide designs and cheaply and easily 3d print these.

Marcel's designs are available at his site here.

I have printed and measured his ST260/B (with a reasonably priced Celestion CDX1-1975) which I believe outperforms a SEOS12....
The SEOS project has an interesting history:
Can compression drivers sound "high end" home fi ? Vortex 15 ?

The way many people have attacked the SEOS project speaks volumes to me.

I tried to go to the original thread, But I get this message - "No Thread specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator".

Have you used your printed horn and a SEOS12 in a system, or only your horn on a test jig? Any measurements to show? How much does your printer equipment cost to make a low cost horn? Time is also a cost. Did the split in the horn affect your measurements?

Last edited by paul7052; 20th September 2021 at 12:08 PM.
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Old 20th September 2021, 12:15 PM   #7903
Mazza is offline Mazza  Australia
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Is it possible to cover the whole spectrum, high spl, low distortion with a 2-way?
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Originally Posted by docali View Post
Could you provide unnormalized fr data and distortion analysis?
Data....
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Old 20th September 2021, 12:36 PM   #7904
paul7052 is online now paul7052  United States
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Originally Posted by camplo View Post
Its not that serious....at all. Reminds me of this guy, who on another group where I asked for someone to share measurements, joined the convo just to say that he had measurements but wasn't going to share them...He felt insulted that I asked for loudspeaker measurements......It was weird.... Actually the analogy I came up with is; To have measurements of a driver, or system, etc, and claim to not share them because of the hard work that went into achieving them.....is akin to Having a system....but refusing to not let a person listen to it....because of all the hard work it took to create the system. Thats called arrogance. Actually its the same approach made by big name manufactures. The guys that, DIYA, are basically an enemy of by educating people on the topic to the point that we, a lot of times, won't even buy their products anymore....

On the other side of the spectrum you have people like myself who had a REW file and DATS measurements (of the AXi), online in multiple areas of the internet within 24 hours of receiving my horns. I bet that information helped/educated someone. I know Joseph Crowe was very interested. Hes also been helpful to me in this endeavor as well.
It is 'that serious' in my world. Thanks for being clear.
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Old 20th September 2021, 12:52 PM   #7905
camplo is offline camplo
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Originally Posted by Mazza View Post
Finally some un-normalized FR................................................ .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ......................
Ty Mazza for being that type of guy to share your measurements....even though its not required of you , you are one of the good ones aye, The time you took away from your Job and family to take and share these measurements, is much appreciated by all....or at least me. I love me some measurements lol. I told my wife this guy was sending me his measurements....she said "hes sending what!?"

Last edited by camplo; 20th September 2021 at 12:59 PM.
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Old 20th September 2021, 12:53 PM   #7906
Mazza is offline Mazza  Australia
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Is it possible to cover the whole spectrum, high spl, low distortion with a 2-way?
Quote:
Originally Posted by paul7052 View Post
The way many people have attacked the SEOS project speaks volumes to me.
Please don't get me wrong, I believe the SEOS was state of the art and is still probably one of the best WG's ever available on a commercial basis.

ATH4 has simply moved that state along somewhat.

I have a SEOS 12 in my bedroom system and (confirmation bias aside) think its the best sounding system I've personally heard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul7052 View Post
Have you used your printed horn and a SEOS12 in a system, or only your horn on a test jig? Any measurements to show? How much does your printer equipment cost to make a low cost horn? Time is also a cost. Did the split in the horn affect your measurements?
I've not had the printed ST260/B in a system. But its clearly very very good. Measurements were just posted now. A friend at work printed this, I pay for the spool of print material. The spool cost $20 AUD, we've printed two complete horns and still have plenty left. Most probably the split does create problems if measured along that axis but I wouldn't use it like that (with a split) in a system.

Last edited by Mazza; 20th September 2021 at 01:18 PM.
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Old 20th September 2021, 01:03 PM   #7907
paul7052 is online now paul7052  United States
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Originally Posted by Ro808 View Post
In your shoes, I'd measure the space between the top of the diaphragm (dome) and rear cup Then (using hot wire) cut a round piece of 30 ppi foam that's just slightly thicker (1-2 mm) than said space and stick it onto the cup. This may significantly reduce the breakup resonances.
Thanks for your suggestion. I examined the additional resonance with the aluminum dome and considered it acceptable, in it's range.

I did read an article about modifying a rear cup with foam. I have a link or copy of it.

If I get to this point, I will probably upgrade to a Be diaphragm first. And, for LCR only. I will do that before considering modification, or a custom waveguide.

I figure that Radian knows more about their compression drivers than I do. If Radian did this modification, or sanctioned it, it would be a plus.

Perhaps Radian will introduce a carbon fiber option for the dome. That would interest me too.

I will keep this idea, and a few others, in mind for future reference.
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Old 20th September 2021, 01:45 PM   #7908
paul7052 is online now paul7052  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazza View Post
Please don't get me wrong, I believe the SEOS was state of the art and is still probably one of the best WG's ever available on a commercial basis.

ATH4 has simply moved that state along somewhat.

I have a SEOS 12 in my bedroom system and (confirmation bias aside) think its the best sounding system I've personally heard.



I've not had the printed ST260/B in a system. But its clearly very very good. Measurements were just posted now. A friend at work printed this, I pay for the spool of print material. The spool cost $20 AUD, we've printed two complete horns and still have plenty left. Most probably the split does create problems if measured along that axis but I wouldn't use it like that (with a split) in a system.
Please don't get me wrong either. I'm not suggesting you are part of the attacks. After following the SEOS project for a few years, I decided the arguments surrounding the project were far more political then technical. The SEOS project was such a beautifully collaborative project. It ruffled a lot of feathers. Feathers with ego and money interests. Some wanted to kill it. Some wanted to take advantage of it. That's my take anyway.

I didn't buy any of the waveguides when they were readily available. Should have. They were relatively inexpensive too. Was far too busy with a public service responsibility, and horns/waveguides was learning a new language to me. I'm playing catch up. My brain is stretching in older age, and I like it.

Thanks for the measurements. Thanks for sharing your bedroom system project. I've seen it before and stored the link for future reading. I saved the ATH4 thread too. So much reading, so little time...

Last edited by paul7052; 20th September 2021 at 01:50 PM.
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Old 20th September 2021, 03:37 PM   #7909
docali is offline docali  Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazza View Post
Many thanks.

What would be your target x-over point with this combo and what steepness? Passive xo or DSP?

How much level is coming from the woofer compared to this?
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Old 20th September 2021, 04:31 PM   #7910
Ro808 is offline Ro808  Netherlands
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paul7052 View Post
If I get to this point, I will probably upgrade to a Be diaphragm first. And, for LCR only. I will do that before considering modification, or a custom waveguide.


Perhaps Radian will introduce a carbon fiber option for the dome. That would interest me too.

I will keep this idea, and a few others, in mind for future reference.

Breakup resonances of 4" metal diaphragms are really hard to surpress/dampen.
Sony did an excellent job with SUP-T11 > video.

Beryllium is the obvious alternative, but apart from the price and poisonous nature, I think it's 'too good' in terms of speed of sound through the material.
Because of this, the mids/highs tend to sound hyper-realistic and separate from the paper cones below, which can get tiresome in the long run.

Carbon fiber was first used in the RCF N980 > video.
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File Type: jpg N980_Diaphragm_M.jpg (590.4 KB, 170 views)

Last edited by Ro808; 20th September 2021 at 04:34 PM.
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