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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Is it possible to cover the whole spectrum, high spl, low distortion with a 2-way?
Is it possible to cover the whole spectrum, high spl, low distortion with a 2-way?
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Old Yesterday, 02:10 PM   #6081
camplo is offline camplo
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Originally Posted by oohms View Post
Generally, as wide as possible, unless you need to restrict it because of room acoustics.

I prefer studio monitor type speakers with 1" waveguide loaded dome tweeters and 5-8" woofers for that kind of distance, my favourite being the old behringer B2031A.

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Yes, I cannot believe I skipped over that Behringer back in the days...I had no idea.

To your point....the jbl 2386, remains 30+/- to 20,000khz at 1 meter......The 2380a is wider yet at 1 meter
The Hvdiff is 30+/- if the listening distance is relaxed to mid or farfield...and a wider polar yet....

I think you are only arguing about things of preference...I have a hypothesis to scratch...Though the sweet spot may be painfully small with a big horn at 1 meter....will the energy within the small beamwidth be an sound engineers heaven? There is evidence that suggest so, in my opinion. I want to investigate that, is all.

Can someone help me make this formula work?
Quote:
If we use +/-15deg w.r.t axis at 1.5m the soundfield width would be +/-1.5m*tan(15deg)=+/-40cm = 80cm wide at 14.5Khz.
Its one thing talk about beam width....the next level is to decipher the literally size of the window at 1 meter...I cannot get this formula DonK gave me, to work. It is likely a mathematical misunderstanding on my part. Looking at the solved formula for the 1.5m listening distance, at 14.5k, the window is 31inches wide lol...wheres all the beaming at? My heads not 31inches wide lol sounds like you guys are asking for gigantic unnecessarily wide sweet spots.

Last edited by camplo; Yesterday at 02:25 PM.
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Old Yesterday, 02:22 PM   #6082
mark100 is offline mark100  United States
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Is it possible to cover the whole spectrum, high spl, low distortion with a 2-way?
If i were you, I'd go ahead, get the Axi and whatever horn you think works, and build/try that before proceeding any further with trying to figure out what goes below it.

Will the Axi/horn sound good per your intentions?
Will it sound good as low as you want to go?
Does it have an acceptable VHF response?
Will it sound good as close as you want to listen?
Only one way to find out....
Models don't make sound.....

You may find the Axi simply doesn't work they way you hope...and have to rethink the CD/horn combo.

I think it's a great project idea (other than the listen at 1m aspect),
and truly hope you acquire the Axi/horn and get it running, along with a suitable bottom end.
But imo it's a step at a time project, as you are in uncharted waters.
And the first pragmatic step is currently there to be made...

Oh, i think i know why I and others never gathered you want to listen at 1m....
Your post #5 reads to me, like simply what SPL spec you were looking for...especially since a SPL spec is typically quoted at 1m.
No real way to have gleaned you meant listen at 1m too,..... imho & fwiw..
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Old Yesterday, 02:42 PM   #6083
plasnu is offline plasnu  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camplo View Post
.oh but wait again...sound engineers already know that headphones are more precise than loudspeakers, for the task of judging frequency specific sound pressure level aka EQ....
Who said that? As far as I know, it's very hard to find a sound engineer who prefer headphones over speakers. As long as the room is very quiet and acoustically well controlled, I can't find any advantage with headphones...
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Old Yesterday, 03:32 PM   #6084
camplo is offline camplo
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Originally Posted by plasnu View Post
Who said that? As far as I know, it's very hard to find a sound engineer who prefer headphones over speakers. As long as the room is very quiet and acoustically well controlled, I can't find any advantage with headphones...
No reason to look for some special person to claim it, just make the comparison yourself...as I said, headphones fall short when it comes to bass and high treble. Headphones are used in conjunction with loudspeaker systems, not to replace them, though there are famous sound engineers who work solely with headphones, if only to prove the point that it can be done. Especially with some of the latest software that help bridge the gap between headphones and loudspeakers.

Its also hard to find sound engineers with enough knowledge to build their own systems so thats no really saying much....

Last edited by camplo; Yesterday at 03:40 PM.
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Old Yesterday, 05:17 PM   #6085
camplo is offline camplo
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Originally Posted by camplo View Post
No sir, the 15m is the midrange model from Acoustic Elegance! My listening range will be from 1m to 3m. I already know I am breaking the rules by listening at 1m but I am ok with sacrificing coherency for accuracy of spl, in which, dynamic contrast, is the focus of this design. I understand that proper distance is needed for the driver to sound as one, though I forget the technical definition for this aspect, I care not, because, white russian lol!
I am sort of concerned about the AE 15m....I want/need the best midrange available. I have a 4" midrange currently and it is not exactly lacking, do to proper size vs physics so now with a 15"midrange, I need to be more critical in choice of mid range driver. I think you support the 15m and I support you so...I am ok with it, but I have to put it out there in case of doubt.
I sincerely preferred a sealed subwoofer...
19th May 2019

Last edited by camplo; Yesterday at 05:20 PM.
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Old Yesterday, 05:24 PM   #6086
camplo is offline camplo
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Join Date: Feb 2019
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark100 View Post
If i were you, I'd go ahead, get the Axi and whatever horn you think works, and build/try that before proceeding any further with trying to figure out what goes below it.

Will the Axi/horn sound good per your intentions?
Will it sound good as low as you want to go?
Does it have an acceptable VHF response?
Will it sound good as close as you want to listen?
Only one way to find out....
Models don't make sound.....

You may find the Axi simply doesn't work they way you hope...and have to rethink the CD/horn combo.

I think it's a great project idea (other than the listen at 1m aspect),
and truly hope you acquire the Axi/horn and get it running, along with a suitable bottom end.
But imo it's a step at a time project, as you are in uncharted waters.
And the first pragmatic step is currently there to be made...

Oh, i think i know why I and others never gathered you want to listen at 1m....
Your post #5 reads to me, like simply what SPL spec you were looking for...especially since a SPL spec is typically quoted at 1m.
No real way to have gleaned you meant listen at 1m too,..... imho & fwiw..
Your point is duly noted...Its still interesting to debate the details in the meantime, I have to spend finding the best price on wood cutting...Covid19 has wood shops either closed or just now reemerging, and now that work is back in season...my one day off (Sunday) combined with random rain days...theres time to pick at details is all.
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Old Yesterday, 05:24 PM   #6087
diyiggy is offline diyiggy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oohms View Post
Generally, as wide as possible, unless you need to restrict it because of room acoustics.

I prefer studio monitor type speakers with 1" waveguide loaded dome tweeters and 5-8" woofers for that kind of distance, my favourite being the old behringer B2031A.

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Techtalk Speaker Building, Audio, Video Discussion Forum

Still exist but active, iirc !


In the shoes of camplo, I wouldn't care about spl at 1 meter and will focus on a very clear sound and good soundstage


this Fujitsu Ten Eclipse TD712z loudspeaker Page 2 | Stereophile.com
with a digital time aligned sub under Helmotz frequency of his room.
dynamic is compressed in most reccording anyway. If you average level is low as a 75 db and if most of people had 115 db peaks able speakers. Most classic speakers don't go that high, it would make sense. But todays, not sure it would (headphones and nomadism + streaming on demand won... imo
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Old Yesterday, 05:52 PM   #6088
camplo is offline camplo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diyiggy View Post
Still exist but active, iirc !


In the shoes of camplo, I wouldn't care about spl at 1 meter and will focus on a very clear sound and good soundstage


this Fujitsu Ten Eclipse TD712z loudspeaker Page 2 | Stereophile.com
with a digital time aligned sub under Helmotz frequency of his room.
dynamic is compressed in most reccording anyway. If you average level is low as a 75 db and if most of people had 115 db peaks able speakers. Most classic speakers don't go that high, it would make sense. But todays, not sure it would (headphones and nomadism + streaming on demand won... imo
Well the time alignment is apart of the system. When I work on a song, most times, there is no compression there unless I put it there. To be able to judge your decisions related to compression, limiting, and eq...you'd want a system that introduces non of those attributes coincidentally...thus the desire for a high output level potential even though there is no intention of listening at such high levels as well as very smooth, relatively neutral voicing.

I believe that I can achieve this high resolution by decreasing as much as possible the excursion of all drivers...hence the large high efficiency drivers at nearfield.

Last edited by camplo; Yesterday at 05:54 PM.
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Old Yesterday, 11:31 PM   #6089
DonVK is online now DonVK  Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camplo View Post

Can someone help me make this formula work? Its one thing talk about beam width....the next level is to decipher the literally size of the window at 1 meter...I cannot get this formula DonK gave me, to work. It is likely a mathematical misunderstanding on my part. Looking at the solved formula for the 1.5m listening distance, at 14.5k, the window is 31inches wide lol...wheres all the beaming at? My heads not 31inches wide lol sounds like you guys are asking for gigantic unnecessarily wide sweet spots.
It might be something as simple your calculator/spreadsheet is using radians (DRG mode) instead of degrees.

I made a few drawings with measurements to show the speaker beam angle (+/-15deg), the beam width, and the sweet spot width. The speaker axial center is always aimed at the center of the listeners head (circle). Wide enough for a single listener, but maybe not for a group of people.
.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg SweetSpot1m5@1m.jpg (52.1 KB, 7 views)
File Type: jpg SweetSpot1m5@1m5.jpg (56.6 KB, 7 views)
File Type: jpg SweetSpot1m5@2m.jpg (59.2 KB, 7 views)
File Type: jpg SweetSpot2m@1m.jpg (55.7 KB, 7 views)
File Type: jpg SweetSpot2m@1m5.jpg (62.0 KB, 7 views)
File Type: jpg SweetSpot2m@2m.jpg (63.1 KB, 2 views)
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Old Yesterday, 11:33 PM   #6090
fluid is offline fluid  Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camplo View Post
Sorry if I come off aggressive, its a road construction thing...I've been amidst my work family. I really do enjoy you guy's company.
Fair Enough

Quote:
Originally Posted by camplo View Post
The problem in my head about the synergy is...what size will this be...what would it look like?.
Most likely something like a K402 or Marks Synergy #7, they work for a driver that can cover a lot of ground on it's own. The size of the woofers to go below it really are what dictate most of the size as well as the pattern control desired. But for nearfield there are better compromises in any case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by camplo View Post
Having ~200hz-20.000khz is very Synergy like is it not?
Maybe, getting more of the range covered from a single point is a big part.

Quote:
Originally Posted by camplo View Post

Can someone help me make this formula work? Its one thing talk about beam width....the next level is to decipher the literally size of the window at 1 meter...I cannot get this formula DonK gave me, to work. It is likely a mathematical misunderstanding on my part. Looking at the solved formula for the 1.5m listening distance, at 14.5k, the window is 31inches wide lol...wheres all the beaming at? My heads not 31inches wide lol sounds like you guys are asking for gigantic unnecessarily wide sweet spots.
Edit: Don beat me to it. Here you go, google scientific calculator put it in degrees instead of radians then type 1.5 x tan 15 and you will get the answer in metres. There is your 40cm half angle. Change the 1.5 or the 15 to vary the distance and angle.


Click the image to open in full size.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Calc.jpg (65.5 KB, 8 views)

Last edited by fluid; Yesterday at 11:36 PM.
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