Go Back   Home > Forums > >
Home Forums Rules Articles diyAudio Store Blogs Gallery Wiki Register Donations FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Is it possible to cover the whole spectrum, high spl, low distortion with a 2-way?
Is it possible to cover the whole spectrum, high spl, low distortion with a 2-way?
Is it possible to cover the whole spectrum, high spl, low distortion with a 2-way? Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 20th May 2019, 04:02 PM   #531
mark100 is offline mark100  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by marco_gea View Post
Interesting, and very true.




Exactly ;-)

My own design approach moves from the notion that high excursion is always bad. If you want to move more air in the bass, then you should have more active surface (Sd), NOT more excursion.

And once you have ensured that excursion remains low enough, then all the aforementioned problems with Le non-linearity become irrelevant anyway.

Totally agree that active surface area (Sd) is the better form of displacement than excursion.

That said however, once Sd is established and becomes a given, I try to use the driver(s) with the greatest xmax.

My assumption is the greater the range of usable excursion, the higher the probability of lower distortion at excursions well below xmax.

I've been using 18n862's based on that thinking...(along with a lot of good test data on the web..)

Also, I tend to think of unused xmax as headroom, analogous to amplifier headroom. There's no doubt in my mind it often helps with huge transients.

Last edited by mark100; 20th May 2019 at 04:05 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 20th May 2019, 04:27 PM   #532
Ro808 is online now Ro808  Netherlands
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Indication of the price level of non-custom Auspurger systems. At least Mogami cables are included.

(some time ago I bought 30kgs of Mogami cables for 100 bucks from a retired big-shot producer)

Last edited by Ro808; 20th May 2019 at 04:33 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 20th May 2019, 04:57 PM   #533
Ro808 is online now Ro808  Netherlands
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark100 View Post
Totally agree that active surface area (Sd) is the better form of displacement than excursion.

That said however, once Sd is established and becomes a given, I try to use the driver(s) with the greatest xmax.

My assumption is the greater the range of usable excursion, the higher the probability of lower distortion at excursions well below xmax.

Also, I tend to think of unused xmax as headroom, analogous to amplifier headroom. There's no doubt in my mind it often helps with huge transients.
This depends on the driver's design. Usually the better midwoofers are X-max limited. IOW you'll need a bigger cab.
These days, most woofers are designed to go loud and low in relatively small cabs. This is reflected in the electrical and mechanical parameters.
If you take a look at B&C's current line of woofers and compare parameters to those of 15 years ago you'll notice this trend> higher power rating, higher x-max, low Vas, low Qts etc.
Evidently, there's the trade-off between excursion, output etc.

It's not surprising Faital's mid woofers are well-suited for domestic use.

Last edited by Ro808; 20th May 2019 at 05:19 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 20th May 2019, 05:34 PM   #534
silverprout is offline silverprout  France
diyAudio Member
 
silverprout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ro808 View Post
I can think of many reasons, but I am not an OB proponent, because of the basic concept (back wave vs room).
That's not to dismiss OBs entirely. I just don't like the limitations, of which low efficiency is just one.
You'll have to solve quite a few conflicts, in order to get a coax (woofer + comp.) to work nicely in an OB.
Doesn't mean it can't be done, but I don't see the merits.


With regards to vintage cinema: In the US, during the 1940s OBs were replaced by front loaded woofers (often in combination with reflex ports).
What design would you perfer for a bass /midbass loudspeaker driver unit ?
A high efficiency motor on a small membrane with low acoustic resistance controlled by the suspension OR a low efficiency motor on a large membrane with a vey high acoustic resistance controlled by the air ?
With others words with some humor, if you have to run your car on the sand what would you choose ? paddle tires OR slick tires ?
__________________
Things I Should Have Learned In School (But Probably Didn't)

Last edited by silverprout; 20th May 2019 at 05:35 PM. Reason: compilance supressed
  Reply With Quote
Old 20th May 2019, 05:59 PM   #535
badman is offline badman  United States
diyAudio Member
 
badman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Ashland, MA
If headroom, or voicecoil heat, or Le(x) are an issue, it's usually because the system is undersized IMO. That doesn't mean that quality drivers aren't still advantageous, but a simple inexpensive paper cone driver operated well within its limits usually isn't that far off from a very high quality driver operated well within its limits.

My best subwoofers were all made with very basic drivers. Good quality, but stamped frame, poly, etc. They were so good because the designs leveraged distortion and force cancellation, and had plenty of surface area.
__________________
"The dawn of Bose created the "Man Cave" and reduced testoterone levels worldwide by 18.5 per cent" Peteleoni
  Reply With Quote
Old 20th May 2019, 06:20 PM   #536
whgeiger is offline whgeiger  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Pensacola, Florida
Default It is all about the money!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ro808 View Post
This depends on the driver's design. Usually the better midwoofers are X-max limited. IOW you'll need a bigger cab.
These days, most woofers are designed to go loud and low in relatively small cabs. This is reflected in the electrical and mechanical parameters.
If you take a look at B&C's current line of woofers and compare parameters to those of 15 years ago you'll notice this trend> higher power rating, higher x-max, low Vas, low Qts etc.
Evidently, there's the trade-off between excursion, output etc.

It's not surprising Faital's mid woofers are well-suited for domestic use.
Question: For a given motor strength [b] and excursion [Xmax], what is the length [l] of voice coil wire that remains is in the magnetic gap for a given [Re]? If we are talking about an underhung design, increasing [Xmax] requires deep buyer pockets. We are now in Goto Unit and ALE country. If [Sd] is increased, then response top end is the sacrificial lamb. Beryllium to the rescue, still even a few Dollars (Yen) more for a compression driver only. For an example of state of the art, have a look at Power Soft's M-Force motor.
YouTube

WHG

Last edited by whgeiger; 20th May 2019 at 06:37 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 20th May 2019, 06:33 PM   #537
Ro808 is online now Ro808  Netherlands
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by badman View Post
If headroom, or voicecoil heat, or Le(x) are an issue, it's usually because the system is undersized IMO. That doesn't mean that quality drivers aren't still advantageous, but a simple inexpensive paper cone driver operated well within its limits usually isn't that far off from a very high quality driver operated well within its limits.

My best subwoofers were all made with very basic drivers. Good quality, but stamped frame, poly, etc. They were so good because the designs leveraged distortion and force cancellation, and had plenty of surface area.

Good point.

There are a lot of misconceptions with regards to driver quality vs. system perfomance.
It's quite obvious why a B&C TBX driver requires a considerable amount of amp. current to 'come to life'. The question remains whether this is desirable and necessary.

Last edited by Ro808; 20th May 2019 at 06:43 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 20th May 2019, 06:39 PM   #538
Ro808 is online now Ro808  Netherlands
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
WHGeiger, I think this has also been the focus of JBL engineers in development of JBL's top of the line woofers in the last 25 years.

Bass compression drivers are beyond my level of sanity.

Last edited by Ro808; 20th May 2019 at 06:52 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 20th May 2019, 07:00 PM   #539
whgeiger is offline whgeiger  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Pensacola, Florida
Default True, as well as for others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ro808 View Post
WHGeiger, I think this has been the focus of JBL engineers in development of JBL's top of the line woofers in the last 25 years.
but are they contributing here?

Quote:
Bass compression drivers are beyond my level of sanity.
Just exploring the limits. You can get clean, prodigious bass reproduction even in a relative small footprint as exemplified by the PS product. To reproduce the first octave of music (and other program content as well) requires moving a lot of air. WHG
  Reply With Quote
Old 20th May 2019, 08:04 PM   #540
Ro808 is online now Ro808  Netherlands
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by silverprout View Post
What design would you perfer for a bass /midbass loudspeaker driver unit ?
A high efficiency motor on a small membrane with low acoustic resistance controlled by the suspension OR a low efficiency motor on a large membrane with a vey high acoustic resistance controlled by the air ?
With others words with some humor, if you have to run your car on the sand what would you choose ? paddle tires OR slick tires ?
Neither, I like high sensitivity with large cones.
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Is it possible to cover the whole spectrum, high spl, low distortion with a 2-way?Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
cascode distortion Spectrum. mashaffer Tubes / Valves 34 22nd January 2017 10:37 PM
6av5ga distortion spectrum enzoastro Tubes / Valves 14 30th January 2013 07:01 PM
Distortion spectrum vs feedback artosalo Tubes / Valves 62 8th December 2011 12:51 AM
What do you look for in the distortion spectrum? keantoken Solid State 13 13th May 2009 01:06 AM
Tailoring distortion spectrum syl Solid State 14 25th March 2002 08:32 PM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 07:54 PM.


Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Resources saved on this page: MySQL 14.29%
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ©1999-2019 diyAudio
Wiki