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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Is it possible to cover the whole spectrum, high spl, low distortion with a 2-way?
Is it possible to cover the whole spectrum, high spl, low distortion with a 2-way?
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Old 20th May 2019, 11:44 AM   #521
phase_accurate is offline phase_accurate
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Very nice, but here we talk about speakers that can go lower and with much higher SPL. At the levels the OP is demanding your speaker would either dissolve or evaporate or even both at once.
And that is exactly the challenge: Low non linear distortion (at high SPLs) AND full-range (with good FR linearity) AND high SPL capability (also at low frequencies).

Regards

Charles
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Old 20th May 2019, 01:34 PM   #522
marco_gea is offline marco_gea  Italy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phase_accurate View Post
Well it is not that simple I would say.
While you are definitley right when it comes to subwoofers this is not actually true for every type of woofer. When the driver has to reproduce midrange as well then there is not just the influence on frequency response (which can be dealt with) from Le but also the non-linear behaviour of Le versus coil position. This leads to midrange IMD. There are of course drivers with high Le and low variance of it where it doesn't matter that much and it might not matter very much when Le is small but the variance is increased as long as one stays away from the pole that is defined by Le and Re.
Interesting, and very true.


Quote:
Originally Posted by phase_accurate View Post
OTOH I built a 2x15" in order to have a speaker with very low excursion even at loud (but not insanely loud) listening levels. In this case it doesn't matter that much either I guess.
Exactly ;-)

My own design approach moves from the notion that high excursion is always bad. If you want to move more air in the bass, then you should have more active surface (Sd), NOT more excursion.

And once you have ensured that excursion remains low enough, then all the aforementioned problems with Le non-linearity become irrelevant anyway.
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Old 20th May 2019, 01:57 PM   #523
plasnu is offline plasnu  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marco_gea View Post
My own design approach moves from the notion that high excursion is always bad. If you want to move more air in the bass, then you should have more active surface (Sd), NOT more excursion.
Agreed. This is one reason why double 15" is still very popular for 2 way design, and I like the sound of those dinosaurs, indeed.
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Old 20th May 2019, 01:59 PM   #524
whgeiger is offline whgeiger  United States
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Default Missing Reference

Quote:
Originally Posted by whgeiger View Post
Based on the interest here, the following is a worth while read, if you have not already done so.
A lot of the JBL/TAD product referenced here is the results of Bart's engineering efforts. WHG
Attached Files
File Type: pdf BNL_JAES_V42_3_PG208.pdf (300.1 KB, 34 views)
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Old 20th May 2019, 02:11 PM   #525
plasnu is offline plasnu  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ro808 View Post
Perception of sound is a subjective affair.
At home there are a lot factors contributing to the actual perception.
That's also why I don't take 80-90% of the so called audiophiles seriously.
80-90% of audiophiles are Hi-Fi folks who's goal is "accuracy"? In my impression, the number is much lower than that even in this DIY forum with a lot of people who do understand technical engineering. They are rather loud minority.

I like the concept of high end audio defined by Harry Pearson. It's all subjective while accuracy still can be a goal.

...high-end could be defined as "gear below which’s price and performance one could not go without compromising the music and the sound.

Last edited by plasnu; 20th May 2019 at 02:14 PM.
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Old 20th May 2019, 02:12 PM   #526
phase_accurate is offline phase_accurate
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For those who like even more authority in the bass range this might be something to consider 8) :

Search Results for “quattro” – Augspurger

I don't know however whether the main speakers are actually two way or two and a half. But maybe the beaming wouldn't actually matter in the case of it being a two way when they are mainly built for staying alive when someone is cranking like mad on bass-heavy tracks.

Regards

Charles
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Old 20th May 2019, 02:22 PM   #527
plasnu is offline plasnu  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camplo View Post
Yeeeeaaa another person with Aquaplas titanium! What is your experience?
I'm also with Aquaplas titanium, JBL 2450SL. Really good sounding driver for sure.
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Old 20th May 2019, 02:31 PM   #528
plasnu is offline plasnu  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchba View Post
I have the JBL 2453h-SL 4" compression drivers mated to the JBL 2384 waveguide using a linear phase digital XO at 630 Hz as recommended by JBL when using active XO.
mitchba, have you ever tried minimal phase crossover? I had been advocating linear phase for a while, but I changed my mind recently. I still use FIR, but not linear any more.
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Old 20th May 2019, 03:33 PM   #529
Ro808 is online now Ro808  Netherlands
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marco_gea View Post

My own design approach moves from the notion that high excursion is always bad. If you want to move more air in the bass, then you should have more active surface (Sd), NOT more excursion.

And once you have ensured that excursion remains low enough, then all the aforementioned problems with Le non-linearity become irrelevant anyway.
Although I do not want to dismiss Le as irrelevant, I agree with this statement.
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Old 20th May 2019, 03:53 PM   #530
Ro808 is online now Ro808  Netherlands
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plasnu View Post
80-90% of audiophiles are Hi-Fi folks who's goal is "accuracy"? In my impression, the number is much lower than that even in this DIY forum with a lot of people who do understand technical engineering. They are rather loud minority.

I like the concept of high end audio defined by Harry Pearson. It's all subjective while accuracy still can be a goal.

...high-end could be defined as "gear below which’s price and performance one could not go without compromising the music and the sound.
I don't think the majority of people that own/buy Wilson, Sonus Faber, Magico, Kharma etc. are active members of this forum.

Price isn't necessarily correlated to "quality". You can build a stunning loudspeaker system for the price of 1 small B&W monitor speaker. You'll have to purchase the parts either used or at a discounted price.
I recently bought a pair of NOS woofers for €75 that are still available for €280 each at some stores.

Last edited by Ro808; 20th May 2019 at 04:00 PM.
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