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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Is it possible to cover the whole spectrum, high spl, low distortion with a 2-way?
Is it possible to cover the whole spectrum, high spl, low distortion with a 2-way?
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Old 20th May 2019, 01:48 AM   #501
Ro808 is offline Ro808  Netherlands
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Mitch will have the data or links available, but if I remember correctly the D2430K wasn't even considered the best sounding JBL driver with the M2 waveguide.

The 2216ND is readily available. It appears for the 4367 the part number is different, ending with 002 instead of 001.

Last edited by Ro808; 20th May 2019 at 02:05 AM.
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Old 20th May 2019, 03:03 AM   #502
Ro808 is offline Ro808  Netherlands
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camplo View Post
As well, the M2 Cd isn't that great below 900hz from what I've gathered in my studies. The lower the crossover the better I say, and 800hz on a 15" isn't exactly choice from my calculations of Ka. I still believe in the M2 and that it is what I want in a two way, its just that I attempted to reach for those type of specs in a DIY and ended up with a 3 way.....lol...I haven't purchased woofers YET, don't think I won't buy the 2216ND lol!!
There's never been a 15" that does 20-800Hz flawlessly, neither does the 2216Nd.
I am sure the Faital 15FH500 and 15PR400 beat the 2216Nd in the midrange, easily.
Add to this the less than stellar performance of the D2430K down low and it becomes clear the M2 is a compromise, though still a good one.
I believe the lack of refinement in the midrange was also mentioned in the shootout between the M2 and the Revel Salon2.

If you'd increase the required low-end extension from 20 to 30 (or 35) Hz, you'll open up a whole world of alternative configurations.

Last edited by Ro808; 20th May 2019 at 03:11 AM.
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Old 20th May 2019, 03:43 AM   #503
Ro808 is offline Ro808  Netherlands
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From looking at the 2216Nd engineering datasheet, it seems JBL basically combined a midwoofer motor structure with a fairly heavy cone and semi-lossy suspension. It's well engineered with high quality parts which is reflected in the Klippel data.

Honestly, I doubt it'll appreciate long term high power levels.
On paper, the LaVoce woofer shown earlier will eat the 2216Nd for breakfast.

It's also obvious the 2216Nd, as used in the M2, is boosted at the low end.

Last edited by Ro808; 20th May 2019 at 04:13 AM.
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Old 20th May 2019, 03:54 AM   #504
Bill Coltrane is offline Bill Coltrane  Netherlands
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ro808 View Post
Have you ever been in a small multi-sub studio?
I found the subs aren't even used most of the times.

Car audio...
Aston Martin DB9 & Vantage, BMW 7-series, Bentley Continental, Mercedes S-Class, Volvo S90, Audi A8, Porsche Cayenne and 911s, Lexus LS....you name it.
A car interior is about the worst space for sound.
Subs in cars: if you want the girls or kids in the back to feel sick, those are perfect instruments.

It's not about reproduction per se, it's more about reproduction relative to the environment.
Just my 2c.
I have a small multi sub studio myself, all subs are working.

Car audio simply disproves the myth that you can't reproduce frequencies longer than the dimensions of the room.
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Old 20th May 2019, 04:19 AM   #505
whgeiger is offline whgeiger  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ro808 View Post
I do not doubt that. Although I think that there are many similarities between these 2 systems.
The TAD can be considered as a distant descendant of the WE757A.
If the TAD were not better, what would the meaning of progression be?

Still...I bet there will be plenty of folks who prefer the midrange of the WE757A to that of the 2404 in a 1 on 1 comparison. How could that be?
hint: these people are not all crazy
Based on the interest here, the following is a worth while read, if you have not already done so.
A lot of the JBL/TAD product referenced here is the results of Bart's engineering efforts. WHG
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Old 20th May 2019, 04:39 AM   #506
camplo is online now camplo
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When I run modeling it tells me that I have good aspect on what to watch for when it comes to avoiding IMD....excursion. In my completely improper experiment, I watched the excursion of an 8" woofer while playing my reference track (drake - I'm upset) one of several reference songs in my arsenal with sub bass in 30's...and I increased the volume until the IMD was detrimental to the source. The excursion at the point of unacceptability was somewhere around 10mm-12mm but twas only a guess. Obviously I could of been more scientific but the objective was on point not to mention my definition acceptability isn't the standard for hi-fi lol. When I run modeling for the 15h ported, the 15m sealed, and the 2216nd ported....the Jbl has significantly lower excursion. This is with the jbl running at 300 watts and the 15H/15M running at 500, both matching the speakers rms, and both the 15H and JBL crossing 30hz at 114db...So when i set out to design a competing 2-way, shooting for the stars, you could say....using AE woofers, excursion was only within this personal acceptable range when I introduced the 2nd woofer....at that point its like....you now have 2 woofers, why aren't you just making a 3 way...
Which has me thinking, if the excursion of the JBl 2216nd is the standard.....The dual AE15m Ported, has lesser excursion than the a single 2216nd....did I jump to a 3 way too fast? The thing that persuaded me was the lack of limitation on the bottom end brought upon by the excursion abilities of the 15H, which would only be utilized during cinematic content per say.....hmmmm choices choices....Then when I look at modeled group delay, AE has jbl beat hands down, on the lowest register with a single AE15H beating out dual 15m's.....I like where this is heading
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Old 20th May 2019, 04:40 AM   #507
Ro808 is offline Ro808  Netherlands
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Coltrane View Post
I have a small multi sub studio myself, all subs are working.

Car audio simply disproves the myth that you can't reproduce frequencies longer than the dimensions of the room.

At lower output levels it's probably functional.

As regards car audio. I know a lot of money and effort is put into R&D of "in-car multimedia" which includes audio. To me, it's little more than "optimizing gadgets", which seems more important than the actual car these days.

Solutions for fundamentally flawed assumptions do not necessarily result in a high-quality (or desirable) outcome.
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Old 20th May 2019, 05:08 AM   #508
mitchba is offline mitchba  Canada
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Originally Posted by camplo View Post
Yeeeeaaa another person with Aquaplas titanium! What is your experience? Only thing better is Beryllium from what I can tell. If noticed with my xover points, 130hz between the 15h and 15m....thats pretty much all sub territory, though 80hz and below is closer to technical sub territory, the low pass on most subs tops at 130hz....I think GM suggested 60hz as a Xover point even. Once I have the system built I can experiment. From experience I can say that serious excursion begins at about 200hz-130hz and below.

ON the M2, I don't feel like I am downplaying the sophistication of the M2, rather, I am not intimidated. Theres nothing about the M2 that isn't repeatable, is my point. Even if its just simply buying the same drivers and putting them in a box. the crossover point is 800hz? So theoretically I could buy the same drivers and horn, put them in a box, and have a DIY M2. The active crossovers aren't magic and the drivers are purchasable to the masses. Enclosure is at the mercy of ones skills. Are you telling me that there is no other 2 way design that even compares to the M2? If thats so, the drivers are still the mainstay of the M2's allure. has anyone even tried to replicate the M2 results using the AE drivers? Sounds like the the Jbl M2 driver is the best of the AE 15m and 15H combined. Lets not leave out that the M2 compression driver isn't exactly the end all driver, there are people with better ears and experience than I who have made it clear that the 4" Diaphragms have something that the M2 compression driver is lacking....."Authority" being one the words I see repeated. As well, the M2 Cd isn't that great below 900hz from what I've gathered in my studies. The lower the crossover the better I say, and 800hz on a 15" isn't exactly choice from my calculations of Ka. I still believe in the M2 and that it is what I want in a two way, its just that I attempted to reach for those type of specs in a DIY and ended up with a 3 way.....lol...I haven't purchased woofers YET, don't think I won't buy the 2216ND lol!!
Hello camplo,

I have the JBL 2453h-SL 4" compression drivers mated to the JBL 2384 waveguide using a linear phase digital XO at 630 Hz as recommended by JBL when using active XO. The 2453h-SL are the cheapest 4" CD's as you can't drop in different phragms. I am very happy with the sound quality from these CD's. Very smooth and low distortion. Recommended.

If you go all the way back to post #15, I linked to a member of the AVSForum that tested a number of JBL CD's including the D2 on the 2384 waveguide, which wasn't the best match: Just purchased a pair of JBL 4722n speakers. - Page 122 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews It looks like the D2 is best XO'd at 800 Hz and designed for the M2 waveguide.

The advantage of the D2 driver is it's ring radiator extension as the 2nd diaphragm. I am fortunate of the Ti aquaplas, but the D2 has the extension to make it to 20 kHz for realz. The issue with the Be drivers is that they do not extend as high as the Ti aquaplas drivers and some add a supertweeter...but some don't and think it "marginally" sounds better than the SL JBL drivers. I don't know if the (significant) cost is warranted...

User pos has posted the eq for the M2 system so you can see for yourself what eq is being used: JBL M2 crossover - Google Docs

The JBL M2 and Revel Salon2 shootout folks refer to is a lot more even than most folks think. I think the real difference is the narrower directivity of the M2 as indicated by the "spinoramas". One may prefer more room sound if listening to classical music whereas others prefer more direct sound for rock (myself included).

My JBL 26SH-1 dual 15" driver are similar to the 2216nd as they are both dual voice coil and neo mags, but the latter being higher quality than the "cinema" version I use. Personally, I love the bass and midrange of these 15" drivers, they really track nicely, with a smooth response. I have not heard the AE drivers, but lots of folks love them for sure.

In my previous post, I linked to a diy M2 build thread. It is worth the time and effort to read through it. Regardless of what you choose, make sure you model the response with the cabs to get the low end you are looking for.

I am pretty happy with my 2 way with the addition of the subs:

Is it possible to cover the whole spectrum, high spl, low distortion with a 2-way?-f18-jpg

Is it possible to cover the whole spectrum, high spl, low distortion with a 2-way?-jbl-4722-rythmik-f18-jpg

Good luck with your build!
Attached Images
File Type: jpg F18 side.JPG (157.2 KB, 626 views)
File Type: jpg JBL 4722 Rythmik F18.JPG (120.6 KB, 614 views)
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Old 20th May 2019, 05:12 AM   #509
Bill Coltrane is offline Bill Coltrane  Netherlands
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ro808 View Post
At lower output levels it's probably functional.

As regards car audio. I know a lot of money and effort is put into R&D of "in-car multimedia" which includes audio. To me, it's little more than "optimizing gadgets", which seems more important than the actual car these days.

Solutions for fundamentally flawed assumptions do not necessarily result in a high-quality (or desirable) outcome.
1 You seem to assume that multiple subs don't work at high spl's. Do you have any argument about this, or just speculation?

2 What argument do you have that you can't reproduce frequencies larger than the dimensions of the room?
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Old 20th May 2019, 05:30 AM   #510
Ro808 is offline Ro808  Netherlands
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Not saying it doesn't, or can't work. From my experience both in small spaces and definitely in cars, very low frequency reproduction is not only compromised but often also highly uncomfortabele. It always puts a grin on my face once the panels begin to rattle in a €200.000 car. Even with the sub's output level behind the other channels.

But hey, it's a free world. This is just a matter of preference and opinion.

Last edited by Ro808; 20th May 2019 at 05:36 AM.
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