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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Is it possible to cover the whole spectrum, high spl, low distortion with a 2-way?
Is it possible to cover the whole spectrum, high spl, low distortion with a 2-way?
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Old 16th May 2019, 06:13 PM   #401
Ro808 is offline Ro808  Netherlands
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There's a rule of thumb, which usually distinguishes technically advanced concepts with perfect measurement data from similar loudspeakers that were developed with the (subjective) sonic performance in mind:
"Never use a woofer with a Mms >80g above 500Hz."

There's much more to this statement, but it basically comes down to the handover between the woofer and the, preferably 3", compression driver diaphragm.

You don't need a PhD in physics to 'see' why a 120g cone crossed to an 1.75" diaphragm is a recipe for 'shortcomings' in the midrange, despite benchmark measurement data.

It's not surprising that Gary Dahl eventually choose the GPA416, because this is one the best 15" midwoofers.
The TD15M is a comparable driver.
Cheaper alternatives are the Faital 15PR400 and the Eminence Deltalite II 2515.

Last edited by Ro808; 16th May 2019 at 06:31 PM.
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Old 16th May 2019, 06:15 PM   #402
Kay Pirinha is offline Kay Pirinha  Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ro808 View Post
A MTM configuration:

And what are these, please? Do they also feature 2235H's?


Quote:
Originally Posted by InOtIn View Post
How have the 2235H's been "completely rebuilt"? Sounds like marketing speak.

I guess they've been reconed. What else could be done? Remagging, for instance, isn't necessary for those ferrite magnet drivers (quite contrary to the older AlNiCo units, btw.).


Genuine C8R2235 kits still are available from JBL, albeit at many $$$ .


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Old 16th May 2019, 06:19 PM   #403
Kay Pirinha is offline Kay Pirinha  Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ro808 View Post
There's a rule of thumb, which usually distinguishes technically advanced concepts with perfect measurement data from similar loudspeakers that were developed with the (subjective) sonic performance in mind:
"Never use a woofer with a MMS >80g above 500Hz."

There's much more to this statement, but it basically comes down to the handover between the woofer and the, preferably 3", compression driver diaphragm.

You don't need a PhD in physics to 'see' why a 120g cone crossed to an 1.75" diaphragm is a recipe for 'shortcomings' in the midrange.

Oops, the 2235H's Mms is 155 g ! Why didn't they use the 2234H (= 2235H less mass ring) with it's lighter cone, as JBL did it in their huge 4435 monitors??



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Old 16th May 2019, 06:52 PM   #404
Ro808 is offline Ro808  Netherlands
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As far as I know they only used the chassis and omitted the mass ring.
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Old 16th May 2019, 07:00 PM   #405
Ro808 is offline Ro808  Netherlands
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This is 'on the edge' for midrange duties, but usually also crossed (way) below 800Hz.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Tad1601a.jpg (75.2 KB, 302 views)

Last edited by Ro808; 16th May 2019 at 07:06 PM.
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Old 16th May 2019, 07:09 PM   #406
marco_gea is offline marco_gea  Italy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ro808 View Post
There's a rule of thumb, which usually distinguishes technically advanced concepts with perfect measurement data from similar loudspeakers that were developed with the acoustic perception in mind.
Never use a woofer with a MMS >80g above 500Hz.
There's much more to this statement, but it basically comes down to the handover between the woofer and the, preferably 3", compression driver diaphragm.

You don't need a PhD in physics to 'see' why a 120g cone crossed to an 1.75" diaphragm is a recipe for 'shortcomings' in the midrange.
Mms on its own means nothing.

It's the ratio of the electromagnetic force factor (BL^2/Re) to Mms that matters w.r.t. faithfully reproducing higher frequencies. And lo and behold, that is directly proportional to the Efficiency Bandwith Product (Fs/Qes).

I don't mean to come across as snarky, but... while one may not need a PhD in physics, some understanding of the actual physics at play would certainly help.
And alas, intuitive "rules of thumb" rarely cut the mustard.

Amicably,
Marco
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Old 16th May 2019, 07:10 PM   #407
Kay Pirinha is offline Kay Pirinha  Germany
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Wow - an 16" AlNiCo woofer at € 1.235 !


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Old 16th May 2019, 07:21 PM   #408
Ro808 is offline Ro808  Netherlands
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kay Pirinha View Post
And what are these, please? Do they also feature 2235H's?
These were built by PBN, it's a custom version of the 2!5 in a MTM config with PBN's Montana 6 sided cabinet.
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Old 16th May 2019, 07:34 PM   #409
Ro808 is offline Ro808  Netherlands
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marco_gea View Post
Mms on its own means nothing.

It's the ratio of the electromagnetic force factor (BL^2/Re) to Mms that matters w.r.t. faithfully reproducing higher frequencies. And lo and behold, that is directly proportional to the Efficiency Bandwith Product (Fs/Qes).

I don't mean to come across as snarky, but... while one may not need a PhD in physics, some understanding of the actual physics at play would certainly help.
And alas, intuitive "rules of thumb" rarely cut the mustard.

Amicably,
Marco


Agreed.
I deleted the EBP part from my post, that's why I stated "there's much more to this". EBPs of TAD woofers were considered benchmarks for a long time.

Still, I think the rule of thumb applies.
Electrically and mechanically "faithfully reproducing higher frequencies" still doesn't automatically translate into a sonically 'correct' midrange, but I admit it's an important aspect in loudpeaker design.

An example:
While I consider myself a JBL afficionado, (like others) I think the D67000's midrange leaves some things to be desired.

Last edited by Ro808; 16th May 2019 at 07:53 PM.
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Old 16th May 2019, 08:29 PM   #410
Ro808 is offline Ro808  Netherlands
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If you observe professionals in the field of loudspeaker design and music (re)production in general, you'll find a potpourri of opinions, philosophies and methods.

In these muddy waters, it's very hard to find the pearls.

Last edited by Ro808; 16th May 2019 at 08:43 PM.
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