It is difficult to get a horn with a decent expectation of its performance with a given driver. Then so many of the available horns are so flimsy, and trying to match throat angles is about impossible. I just decided that I'd have to build my own. If you can find a driver/horn combination that someone has measured then you can have some idea of its bandwidth and dispersion to match it up into a speaker. Even then you have a lot of trial and error potentially to find a woofer combination that meets your expectations. It was a long road for me, but in the end very rewarding. I'm sold on the concept of a horn loaded compression driver crossed low (500-1k) to a suitable woofer giving you a high output full range 2 way.
I can +1 this. I believe it is a leap of faith. I can't imagine another way to get this level of performance.
Also round is a good shape for a freestanding waveguide as this follows the driver shape, no issues.
I think the waveguides mentioned will get my foot in the door until I can reach a level to know what you guys are even talking about lol. The driver I picked should be one to offer longevity. If you have a better suggestion for a waveguide to start with I’m all ears. I’ve read that horns have better sound for single listener scenario, which is what I want but do they even sell horns in America ������*♂️��?
I started with a steel lampshade, a wooden frame, a plaster throat and a foam mouth. I moved on to something like shown in the image. Then I extended the conical portion several times and added a new mouth each time.
All this is fairly close to right, almost good enough, but not exactly. So I've redone this a few times using better materials and better shapes.
Starting with an existing OS throat is probably simpler and more meaningful than starting from the other end.
All this is fairly close to right, almost good enough, but not exactly. So I've redone this a few times using better materials and better shapes.
Starting with an existing OS throat is probably simpler and more meaningful than starting from the other end.
Attachments
Campio. There's some good info in this thread:
Horn questions
Also if you decide to use a radian 475 or another 6 degree throat 1" compression driver, I could cast you some horns from my mold. The only problem is that it will be a couple months before I could get to it. Laid up with a broken leg right now.
Horn questions
Also if you decide to use a radian 475 or another 6 degree throat 1" compression driver, I could cast you some horns from my mold. The only problem is that it will be a couple months before I could get to it. Laid up with a broken leg right now.
See on-axis null in horn speakers?
Thanks again to Earl for providing really useful information to the forums.
Chris
This is very interesting. Does anyone know how to predict what frequency the null will occur? My horns have a few small dips. Maybe I've discovered an explanation for one of them.
$698 2 x BMS 4590-16 BMS 4590-16 – Thomann United States
$698 2 x Acoustic Elegance TD15h Acoustic Elegance TD15H - Sealed or Vented Box Applications
$80 2 x Goldwood GM-450PB 2" High Frequency Horn 4 Bolt 500hz
$110 1 x Balanced miniDSP
I'm about to spend money. I need a reality check.
My goal is to design my own reference speaker, meaning I am aiming for accuracy of reproduction, no coloration.
Am I a fool to think that CD's have superior accuracy in the midrange, and maybe, more recently, with the invention of coaxial CS's, treble as well?
That the directivity of CD and waveguide will help to focus sound on me, and limit reflections
That the off axis of a 90 x 40 waveguide seems to me more of just a gradual increase affect of a high pass filter and less peaks and dips added to the curve like I see with dynamic drivers caused by maybe baffle diffraction.....
Those things are what what I have lead myself to believe from the many different sources I've scoured over the last month or two, and fuel the spending of this money.
If I am far from correct I have the BEYMA 5CX200ND/N for a backup design. Both still incorporating a coaxial thus still supply the inherent benefits of such, and both having decently flat response. If I have to get aluminum waveguide to eliminate variation in throat angle then so be it.
Would it be smarter for to buy the 4590P so add the passive crossover, thus, providing even more eq correction when I use the active crossover? Or is the passive crossover never wanted in the signal chain to begin with?
Just need some one to at least play devils advocate before I make this investment.
$698 2 x Acoustic Elegance TD15h Acoustic Elegance TD15H - Sealed or Vented Box Applications
$80 2 x Goldwood GM-450PB 2" High Frequency Horn 4 Bolt 500hz
$110 1 x Balanced miniDSP
I'm about to spend money. I need a reality check.
My goal is to design my own reference speaker, meaning I am aiming for accuracy of reproduction, no coloration.
Am I a fool to think that CD's have superior accuracy in the midrange, and maybe, more recently, with the invention of coaxial CS's, treble as well?
That the directivity of CD and waveguide will help to focus sound on me, and limit reflections
That the off axis of a 90 x 40 waveguide seems to me more of just a gradual increase affect of a high pass filter and less peaks and dips added to the curve like I see with dynamic drivers caused by maybe baffle diffraction.....
Those things are what what I have lead myself to believe from the many different sources I've scoured over the last month or two, and fuel the spending of this money.
If I am far from correct I have the BEYMA 5CX200ND/N for a backup design. Both still incorporating a coaxial thus still supply the inherent benefits of such, and both having decently flat response. If I have to get aluminum waveguide to eliminate variation in throat angle then so be it.
Would it be smarter for to buy the 4590P so add the passive crossover, thus, providing even more eq correction when I use the active crossover? Or is the passive crossover never wanted in the signal chain to begin with?
Just need some one to at least play devils advocate before I make this investment.
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Horrible things. I gave my last pair away some years ago. And the 4590 will NOT play down to 300Hz in that horn. I didn't like it that low in my Arai 290s which are a fair bit larger; I eventually decided on a 600Hz, steep xover and was happy with them that way.
No, it's junk. Keep passives out of the signal path in an active wherever possible, ie 100% of the time.
I doubt the Goldwood listed will get that low either.
Build a Synergy.
The minidsp will be the limliting factor, better upgrade to the newer minidsp HD version.
Or even better: Hypex Fusion
But that's with integrated amplifiers
Or even better: Hypex Fusion
But that's with integrated amplifiers
First on the minidsp. It is acceptable to use passive xo for horn and minidsp to split woofer/horn. That has the advantage of needing only 1 tube amp to power the horns. You WILL be experimenting with the SET sound of you haven't already, and having to buy two tube amps is expensive. Going passive just will not give you the flexibility to play with different crossovers on the horn. (I understand this is a dual diaphragm cd, requiring a xo between the two diaphragms?) You will still be able to apply eq as needed with the minidsp. Eliminating the passive xo might yield some sonic advantage, but it won't be huge. Keep in mind that if you decide to go active for the xo on the compression driver, you will need the 4x10.
Standard minidsp vs HD. It is a worthwhile upgrade. The HD seems to have a more relaxed and less fatiguing sound but the difference is not huge in my experience. If someone swapped them back without my knowing I'm not 100% certain I would ever notice if I'm honest.
Horns vs direct radiators. The horn sound has the advantages you list. Resolution seems much better because more of the sound arriving at your ears is direct rather than reflected off the room. The dynamics are absolutely thrilling. Recreating the volume of a live concert is effortless. The disadvantage of horns is that the sound is very "front row" and "in your face". Bad recordings can be more difficult to tolerate. A good direct radiator in a good room, properly setup has a more natural, easy way of laying out the sound in the space vs a horn which will cram it in your face. Horns are not everyone's cup of tea. It is difficult to say which perspective you will prefer. A horn is like driving a Ferrari, exciting, responsive, a lot of fun. A good direct radiator is more like a BMW, smoother, easier, but much less thrilling.
I have no experience with the drivers you selected, but they seem capable. I would bet you will be thrilled when you get it assembled. Matching a woofer up to my horns was a long process. It was the fourth driver that finally sounded right. Keep in mind that it's possible you may not like the first pairing you try. There is some risk there.
Go for it. Getting a horn system for me has been a whole new level of listening pleasure. Good luck!
Standard minidsp vs HD. It is a worthwhile upgrade. The HD seems to have a more relaxed and less fatiguing sound but the difference is not huge in my experience. If someone swapped them back without my knowing I'm not 100% certain I would ever notice if I'm honest.
Horns vs direct radiators. The horn sound has the advantages you list. Resolution seems much better because more of the sound arriving at your ears is direct rather than reflected off the room. The dynamics are absolutely thrilling. Recreating the volume of a live concert is effortless. The disadvantage of horns is that the sound is very "front row" and "in your face". Bad recordings can be more difficult to tolerate. A good direct radiator in a good room, properly setup has a more natural, easy way of laying out the sound in the space vs a horn which will cram it in your face. Horns are not everyone's cup of tea. It is difficult to say which perspective you will prefer. A horn is like driving a Ferrari, exciting, responsive, a lot of fun. A good direct radiator is more like a BMW, smoother, easier, but much less thrilling.
I have no experience with the drivers you selected, but they seem capable. I would bet you will be thrilled when you get it assembled. Matching a woofer up to my horns was a long process. It was the fourth driver that finally sounded right. Keep in mind that it's possible you may not like the first pairing you try. There is some risk there.
Go for it. Getting a horn system for me has been a whole new level of listening pleasure. Good luck!
Rubbish.
He's asking questions that clearly indicate a lack of skillset to design a reference grade (his words) passive xover. I have used the factory ones; they are awful. Moving to DSP made a very significant improvement. My guess is you have no experience with these specific parts; I do.
