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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Is it possible to cover the whole spectrum, high spl, low distortion with a 2-way?
Is it possible to cover the whole spectrum, high spl, low distortion with a 2-way?
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Old 5th March 2019, 01:03 PM   #31
lowmass is offline lowmass  United States
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I too am doing some work with a 2 way monitor design. Seems to me the biggest issue is the behavior of a big cone taken well into its breakup region and that in a place the ear is quite sensitive to.

I have spent last 30 years listening primarily to full range ribbons and planers so not sure how much this has to do with it but I have not yet been able to get a larger woofer to sound as clean as I would like at anything above about 300 hz cross both in box and dipole
I admit to a limited experience with large woofers and maybe with one linear enough it can sound better but so far I struggle with the sound of big cones taken up to 800-1K hz.

My present system uses a PA12 mated to a ribbon at 1 khz. The ribbon sits in a wave guide approx 15 inches wide. Sensativity is 95 db.
It plays loud but not 120 db loud, and goes down to about 50 hz. Basically for me it simply doesn't go deep enough AND the big one is that I just dont think the big woofer is well enough behaved above about 3-400 hz to match well with the ribbon and I suspect a good compression driver would be the same?.

Im sure there are big cones that traverse this region better BUT I am skeptical that such a structure can sound as convincing as drivers operating closer to piston??

800 hz -1 khz seems about the limit to the more practical sized monitor so I suspect it will take a very well refined cone design in a 2 way to match the upper freq drivers character enough.

Last edited by lowmass; 5th March 2019 at 01:12 PM.
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Old 5th March 2019, 02:24 PM   #32
Robh3606 is offline Robh3606  United States
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Hello camplo

I figure you already know this but the M2 has it roots in the 1980's 4430 monitor. This system comes very close to range you are looking for at the SPL you are looking for. The 4435 gives even more headroom and bass extension being a 2 1/2 way. Food for thought and to give some ideas. They are also lots of them around so I am sure you can find a pair to have a listen.

Rob

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Old 5th March 2019, 02:57 PM   #33
marco_gea is offline marco_gea  Italy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robh3606 View Post
I figure you already know this but the M2 has it roots in the 1980's 4430 monitor.
http://www.lansingheritage.org/image...-35/page06.jpg
..and the 4430 monitor has its own roots in the 1930's Lansing Iconic
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Old 5th March 2019, 03:40 PM   #34
Robh3606 is offline Robh3606  United States
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Quote:
..and the 4430 monitor has its own roots in the 1930's Lansing Iconic
Now that is a system I would really like to hear someday!

Rob
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Old 5th March 2019, 05:37 PM   #35
neskor is offline neskor  Serbia
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Also TAD 2402


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Old 5th March 2019, 08:44 PM   #36
camplo is offline camplo
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Thank you guys for sharing your experience. Some people can be so holier than thou on topics that concerns the details of basic design, so far everyone has been very humble, ty for that!
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Old 6th March 2019, 06:14 PM   #37
camplo is offline camplo
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I think this woofer is the first good choice I've made
Ciare NDH15-4S - 15" Subwoofer
The low fs, high sens, very decent xmax, inductance is not on the high side.
With room eq, I can reach 114db at 30hz in a 2.1ft3

So finally I measured what my system is currently doing. 30hz 113db, with a way too much THD, due to the limiter and reaching the max specs of amp/driver combo. Its not that loud to me at all.
My reference track, "Drake - I'm upset" 808 tuned to 34hz (didn't somebody doubt me when I said rap and edm have 808's tuned to the 30's?) 105db and way too much THD.

I think I'd be more than satisfied with a woofer in the performance range of the one selected. My goal was to have rms power at max listening levels. CTS 1200 600watts rms, The ultimax 15 and the Ciare NDH15-4S are puling 110db at 30hz,

And then I found the trade off, 2ms of group delay over the Ultimax 15, 10ms total.
Ill have to keep looking to see if I can do better but I am making progress so, I am hopeful.
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Old 6th March 2019, 07:58 PM   #38
camplo is offline camplo
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Also....full range ribbon!? Never knew there was such a thing, anyone have suggestions on ribbon products or ribbon vs CD?
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Old 7th March 2019, 09:20 AM   #39
phase_accurate is offline phase_accurate
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I am using two beyma 15lx60v2 in my large MTMs.

Regards

Charles
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Old 7th March 2019, 02:38 PM   #40
badman is offline badman  United States
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There's a counterpart to hoffman's iron law- it's probably been described before, but it's around bandwidth, distortion, and SPL(displacement). There are drivers that can do wide bandwidth and low distortion, but exceedingly low SPL (headphone drivers). As you increase the SPL requirement, you get more and more into focused designs oriented towards specific bandwith SPL capabilities. Xmax/size/Fs/power handling in woofers, traded off against voice coil inductance, breakup modes, etc, with the tradeoffs changing as you get into mids which need less Xmax, can have higher Fs and smaller diaphragm size but may still need very high power handling in the coils, and into a still different tradeoff for tweeters.

The very best 2 ways with high SPL/low distortion capability still trade extension and distortion characteristics in the top and bottom octaves, generally allowing them to simply roll off rather than forcing the issue (as with bad sounding PA speakers that will let the horn driver operate in nasty distorted breakup in the top octave).

Separate subs are generally the way to go regardless for reasons besides driver tradeoffs (I won't beat the multisub dead horse here), so you can relax the <100hz requirements (though I like to XO lower, around 60) which lets you worry more about the top end performance of the woofer, which in turn relaxes the tweeter requirements and opens up more bandwidth up high.
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