Go Back   Home > Forums > >
Home Forums Rules Articles diyAudio Store Blogs Gallery Wiki Register Donations FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Is it possible to cover the whole spectrum, high spl, low distortion with a 2-way?
Is it possible to cover the whole spectrum, high spl, low distortion with a 2-way?
Is it possible to cover the whole spectrum, high spl, low distortion with a 2-way? Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 27th October 2019, 01:52 AM   #3871
cspieker is offline cspieker  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: South Dakota
Quote:
Originally Posted by turk 182 View Post
then it's easy after all and just like that lyric from Billy Joel "..you get more mileage from a cheap pair of speakers"


no more sweating the details!
I wasn't clear, was I. With lesser speakers, good and great recordings sound the same because the speakers max out at "good", so to speak. You never hear "great". Once you hear "great" on better speakers, that's what you want to hear from then on, and the idea of listening to the so-so recordings just doesn't appeal to you as much.
  Reply With Quote
Old 27th October 2019, 01:57 AM   #3872
scottjoplin is offline scottjoplin  Wales
diyAudio Member
 
scottjoplin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Penrhyndeudraeth
How would you define a so-so recording? Seriously, old, overprocessed, distorted, etc?
  Reply With Quote
Old 27th October 2019, 02:14 AM   #3873
krivium is offline krivium  France
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Hi ScottJoplin,
Well there is many way to screw up things.
The list is long. And i have a lot of example i've done i could send ( but i won't as i don't want to definitely loose credibility in public! :P ).

I thought i sent you one such example some year ago. In that particular case the kind of couple wasn't adapted to the instrument ( but had not really other choice regarding the acoustic), the kind of mic used wasn't here again the best choice for this piano regarding its tone.

There was too much ambient noise and overall the whole rendering wasn't really natural which for this kind of music isn't great ( It was an extract from ballad No1 in g minor Op23).
Overall not very good. The pianist was great and the performance worth to keep but for the rest?

Just an example.

Last edited by krivium; 27th October 2019 at 02:18 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 27th October 2019, 02:24 AM   #3874
camplo is offline camplo
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark100 View Post
Just a few thoughts on what makes a speaker sound good across a wide range of recordings...

First, from a frequency reponse point of view, a tonal balance point of view, I think the closer we are to a flat downward sloping magnitude trace, the more likely we are in the mean of the distribution of the mastering environments.
There are mastering variances all over the place for sure, but the distance between our particular system and the variances gets minimized.

Next, I agree the ratio of direct to reflected sound matters....hugely really.
The wider the speaker's dispersion, the greater the percentage of recordings that will sound passable. The more omni the speaker, the better the odds of a recording sounding OK.
Not optimal by any means, ... but OK, passable..

And last, something I've been learning from comparing my CD+12" boxes to recent builds such as the 15" coax, and CBT/straight line arrays, is the number of points the direct sound comes from effects the % of recordings that will sound good.

The line arrays definitely produce multiple direct arrivals of the same signal. They make for a nice pleasing direct sounds good across alot of material.
The 15" coax makes multiple arrivals in its cone region, that I don't measure on straight cones in the same passband. I think that's why it sounds a little more diffuse than a coax CD+12".
The 15" coax is a little more tolerant of source material than the coax CD+12". (with close to same radiation pattern)


Bottom line ime, whether it's multiple arrivals from wider dispersion and reflection, or multiple arrivals from multiple direct points coming straight from the speaker......we get time smear.
And time smear is forgiving of recordings ... and strangely can often help make decent sound.

But when there's no time smear, and the recording is good...well....to me that's what hifi is....that's when phase response becomes all important too.
Only problem is that it becomes like walking on a tightrope. Bad recordings, even slight spectral imbalances, become more apparent.

Oh, and hi-fi has to have the headroom Krivium was talking about..
Gotta love this hobby, huh?
Thanks for sharing Mark, your experience is very telling. At first glance its like yeah thats predictable because time smear should equal cancellations and anomalies in the freq response that are dynamic in nature, dynamic as in "characterized by constant change, activity, or progress" . Multiways should be affected by this within the crossover region. I am confused why a compression coaxial plus 12" woofer would have less arrivals than a 15" coaxial. Makes no sense at first glance. If the coaxial compression driver had a lesser amount of arrivals, it would make sense that directivity of the horn it was on reduced reflections....but the reason you gave evades me. There will be some percentage of time smear within crossover frequencies, the coaxial 15" has 1 xover, the coaxial compression driver + 12 has 3....So please elaborate on this please.



I think we are starting to get a sense of what dynamic contrast is. 3.
Dynamics -
MUSIC
the varying levels of volume of sound in different parts of a musical performance.
Contrast
the state of being strikingly different from something else

In this case the "strikingly different" variable is SPL. The more Dynamic Contrast a loudspeaker has, the greater the distance between the highest high and lowest low in comparison to other loudspeakers. As I've said before, judging eq accurately is drastically impacted by how a loudspeaker performs in this area.

Time smear, or better yet, Time based distortion, will cause cancellation and accumulation of spl , uniquely or chaotically, within the frequency response. These changes remain in a dynamic state, that is, ever changing, fueled by the source material itself. If I am not mistaken, it was in a Geddes paper (https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/157...8ca68385b6.pdf) that I was made aware of the possibility of spl manipulating group delay. It is this ever changing state of micro transactions between time smear and spectral spl, due to input level differences across the spectrum of the evolving source material, that is at core. So to come full circle, we end up with a spectral spl contrast level that is not perfectly static, because there is no perfect loudspeaker...which is a fancy way of saying that the frequency response curve is not static at a transfer function level nor an input level scenario.....

So my goal is to minimize amount of "arrivals" and the contrast of latency of the arrivals, the best I can. High directivity, lowest amount of drivers, and in the case of multiple drivers, time alignment.....low excursion increases linearity which increases consistency....
  Reply With Quote
Old 27th October 2019, 03:07 AM   #3875
camplo is offline camplo
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
The more Dynamic Contrast a loudspeaker has, the greater the distance between the highest high and lowest low in comparison to other loudspeakers playing the same material at the same base level
  Reply With Quote
Old 27th October 2019, 04:19 AM   #3876
Drofdissonance is offline Drofdissonance
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Quote:
Originally Posted by camplo View Post
So by chance, I'm reading about the WESTMINSTER ROYAL....the first thought that came to mind was that when we discussed using a compression driver within a coaxial woofer....many people spoke of modulation introduced by the moving woofer/faux horn...yet the Tannoys are highly regarded... whats the deal?
Most people who focus on data driven quality assessments (Gedds etc) say it's because I.M.D. does is not very audible and doesn't degrade quality much.

Makes sense given that when Genelec brought out the One series, they were focused on the reduction in diffraction that their approach with the dual surround gave. (their solution wouldn't change the I.M.D.) I assume that configuration is patented though.... :/
  Reply With Quote
Old 27th October 2019, 04:30 AM   #3877
camplo is offline camplo
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
If IMD isn't a serious condition what is midrange warble that happens when the woofer of a two way is caused to extend too much due to loud and or deep bass, called?

The Genelec one series....lets say the 8361A.....thats a 3 way, since when did 3 ways have major IMD issues generally speaking? How well do you think it handles sub bass? It probably needs a sub, because of IMD issues associated with high excursion of sub bass....


Woofers are known to increase in transient response with the introduction of properly placed high pass filtering....that removes high excursion.....cause IMD.

Last edited by camplo; 27th October 2019 at 04:40 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 27th October 2019, 08:17 AM   #3878
krivium is offline krivium  France
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
This warble is more probably Doppler effect.
  Reply With Quote
Old 27th October 2019, 01:09 PM   #3879
krivium is offline krivium  France
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by camplo View Post
High directivity, lowest amount of drivers, and in the case of multiple drivers, time alignment.....low excursion increases linearity which increases consistency....
High directivity comes to a price: listening position will be small and move a bit and everything change. Typical head in a wise. I really dislike that hence my love for Coax.
Pick your poison.

Mark i agree your comment is very interesting. Even more as you have direct access to this different kinds of behavior and can perform comparative test. I'm jealous!
However my experience with ATC was a bit different to wider directivity being 'more tolerant'* with medoicre signal. That said it was in a pro control room with all the acoustic treatment needed( and designed to suit the speakers/ the room was designed around the loudspeakers) so it may be unfair.

Ro808, thank you bringing those Martin's coaxials to my knowledge.
I can see one of them nested between two Volts woofers in MTM: badass looking loudspeaker! I could forget about sound for something this intimidating: Tie jet fighter or Batmobil look ( as in C.Nolan's incarnation).

More seriously, the polar maps comparison reminds me of an interview of Dave Smith ( past Snell/Jbl/Mc Intosh designer, member here as SpeakerDave) where he talked about directivity ( amongst other). Worth a read:

[Interview] David Smith [English]

* this is how i interpret your statement. Atc design philosophy is to have wide dispertion and restrict the drivers bandpass to limit distortion iirc.

Last edited by krivium; 27th October 2019 at 01:15 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 27th October 2019, 02:56 PM   #3880
Ro808 is offline Ro808  Netherlands
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by camplo View Post
If IMD isn't a serious condition what is midrange warble that happens when the woofer of a two way is caused to extend too much due to loud and or deep bass, called?

Woofers are known to increase in transient response with the introduction of properly placed high pass filtering....that removes high excursion.....cause IMD.

The midrange warble (IMD?) is definitely noticeable with many direct radiating 2-ways. I have a pair with 1" alu dome and a proprietary 5.5 Scanspeak woofer. The replacement cost of one of those Scanspeaks will buy you a pair of BMS 15" coaxes.
These are specified to <32 Hz – 21 kHz ± 3 dB and guess what?
Quick in-room measurements left no doubts about this claim.

In itself it's quite impressive to physically experience the bass coming from these tiny air-pumps. But here's the catch:
Although these play small scale (acoustic) music very convincingly, the midrange tends to muddy up/get blurred on more densely recorded material.
There's a noticable lack of transparency/details compared to my big 2-ways.


krivium, your experiences are consistent with my own.

The listening position will be small with high directivity and narrow coverage.
I expect these Martin Coaxials won't leave much to be desired in this respect.

Last edited by Ro808; 27th October 2019 at 03:26 PM.
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Is it possible to cover the whole spectrum, high spl, low distortion with a 2-way?Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
cascode distortion Spectrum. mashaffer Tubes / Valves 34 22nd January 2017 10:37 PM
6av5ga distortion spectrum enzoastro Tubes / Valves 14 30th January 2013 07:01 PM
Distortion spectrum vs feedback artosalo Tubes / Valves 62 8th December 2011 12:51 AM
What do you look for in the distortion spectrum? keantoken Solid State 13 13th May 2009 01:06 AM
Tailoring distortion spectrum syl Solid State 14 25th March 2002 08:32 PM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 11:22 AM.


Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Resources saved on this page: MySQL 14.29%
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ©1999-2019 diyAudio
Wiki