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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Is it possible to cover the whole spectrum, high spl, low distortion with a 2-way?
Is it possible to cover the whole spectrum, high spl, low distortion with a 2-way?
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Old 23rd October 2019, 05:15 AM   #3781
GM is offline GM  United States
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Theory Vs actual human hearing perception.

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Old 23rd October 2019, 08:08 AM   #3782
krivium is offline krivium  France
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Or as being pointed by Earl Geddes some parameters are not this relevant, imd and thd being some of them*.
That said coax Tannoy style does have imd as high is modulated by woofer moving.
If you want to limit that high pass around 300hz the woofer and go threeway.

Sorry to bring this back but it was my point reintroducing coax to the discussion some pages ago.
Westminster are highly regarded yes, but in pro circle the 215 dmt, 15dmt or the Buckingham and Dreadnought where the weapon of choice for good reason.

* up to a point obviously. I know this is counter intuitive but just think about triode amplifier they introduce much more thd however they are still in use and highly regarded.
About thd, Nelson Pass's 'first watt' range is interesting as he is proposing different models with different ratio of 2nd and third harmonic distortion which give them different 'personality', some being compared to triode amplifiers.
Despite that fact ( relatively higher thd than some other brands or technology) i don't think they could be determined as fuzzbox and the one i've heard ( F5 and Threshold models) are amongst the most transparent sounding amp i've heard.

Last edited by krivium; 23rd October 2019 at 08:38 AM.
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Old 23rd October 2019, 09:35 AM   #3783
cdm is offline cdm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchba View Post
I had the KEF (Fig. 6, Alt units) version as a kit back in the mid 70's: http://www.keith-snook.info/wireless...0Enclosure.pdf

Still remember the excellent bass response that was deep, transient and non resonant. Had the wool fill too. Can't remember the exact kit number...

Hi Mitch,
how does a transient bass sound? I ask this, because Iīve read, for example, that the Strauss SE-MF-2 (mentioned earlier in this thread) are supposed to have the best transient, at least some Pros are saying/writing this ("best transient they ever heard").

I dont know if itīs true, but how would a speaker with bad, or letīs say not so good transient, sound/compare with a good one?
Thanks,
Chris
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Old 23rd October 2019, 11:23 AM   #3784
krivium is offline krivium  France
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Hi CDM, i'm not Mitchba but here is my take on this,
low end content is mostly transient signal* ( think about a kickdrum). If the loudspeaker doesn't have good transient response it will compress signal and or induce slower response to it ( high group delay).

As a result the low end can sound 'bigger' than it really is ( from transient smearing) and/ or somewhat slow ( i don't like this term but it is often used in audiophile words to define groupdelay).

My own feeling about that is that a loudspeaker with good behavior about transient may not sound as impressive as a bad one short term but long term you'll be able to spot non natural reproduction. Long term you'll too find the good one being more 'vivid' about reproduction.
At least this is how i perceive things.

* this is true to acoustic instrument. If you listen to electronic music it may not be obvious as the sound are abstract by nature. For me it is most important with acoustic double bass, kick drums, taikko drums,...the exception being organ. If you listen to electronic dub, d&b, bassmusic in general you may have droning bass which doesn't exist in real life and are more difficult for drivers. A sustained 30hz note with high rms level doesn't really exist in real life but with electronic instruments it happen.
And here transient are usually less a concern for the drivers than their ability to withstand the torture this sustained sound represent to drivers. Think about thermal compression.

Last edited by krivium; 23rd October 2019 at 11:45 AM.
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Old 23rd October 2019, 02:22 PM   #3785
ErnieM is offline ErnieM  United States
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Well said krivium,

I would extrapolate that to steep phase changes vs linear phase. Not a big difference in the short term but better in the long run. Still controversial of course.
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Old 23rd October 2019, 06:10 PM   #3786
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Like light, with sound our ears always seek to equalize, some aspect that has been accepted as passable, allowing other aspects of grandeur to not lose face, may stand out as obvious once the passable aspect is directly contrasted by the audition of another loudspeaker that succeeds greatly at the aspect the other loudspeaker only passes as good enough.
I personally think IMD is really important when judging eq is the task, IMD and power compression augment the level of frequencies produced. As well, having the source become singular helps in the perception of balance or unbalance of the spectrum. I couldn’t tell you which plays a bigger role but I feel IMD is a larger factor and that it can even increase power compression.

So to entertain, is there even a 15 driver that I can mount my 2451 too? Aren’t there issues with the xover in crossovers that present their own negatives?
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Old 23rd October 2019, 09:21 PM   #3787
GM is offline GM  United States
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None suggested/recommended that I could find, though 300 Hz XO, no woofer: https://www.jblpro.com/pages/pub/com...s/21929394.pdf

Always with passives AFAIK, no experience [yet] with modern DSP.

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Last edited by GM; 23rd October 2019 at 09:26 PM.
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Old 23rd October 2019, 09:57 PM   #3788
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We were discussing a certain eminence driver that was a 12 or 15, that allowed use of compression driver but it had to screwed in?
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Old 23rd October 2019, 10:19 PM   #3789
krivium is offline krivium  France
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camplo View Post
So to entertain, is there even a 15 driver that I can mount my 2451 too? Aren’t there issues with the xover in crossovers that present their own negatives?
Are you talking about coax driver or regular 15" Camplo?
If you are talking about coax, the new eminence needs 1" cd iirc.
In France we have some PHL model (5230) which accept 1,4" cd but... very few info about them.

About xover yes they can be tricky, but you can have good results.
Have you seen the Taipuu 3way (1x15" coax+ 1x18")?

Last edited by krivium; 23rd October 2019 at 10:34 PM.
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Old 23rd October 2019, 11:53 PM   #3790
mitchba is offline mitchba  Canada
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Hi cdm, what krivium says The thing I remembered with that transmission line was how (subjectively) effortless the deep bass was to 20 Hz. No sign of compression (at normal listening levels), no overhang, and non-resonant sounding. Pure sounding like a pipe organ. I know, pretty subjective, but that low frequency bass quality really sounded good and has stuck in my mind for many years.

Now I have dual 15" (ported) bass cabs down to 45 Hz crossing over two 18" subwoofers that can go pretty low. Using DSP there is very little group delay and the frequency and phase is mostly flat down to 10 Hz. Sounds really good, but compared to the cost, I sometimes wonder about building a proper transmission line and selling the subs... forever design tradeoffs.
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