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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Is it possible to cover the whole spectrum, high spl, low distortion with a 2-way?
Is it possible to cover the whole spectrum, high spl, low distortion with a 2-way?
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Old 4th March 2019, 03:20 AM   #11
camplo is offline camplo
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I’m basically copying the jbl m2 specs. It’s just hard for me to accept that a woofer can play an 808 tuned to the 30s and handle lower to mid, midrange, at the same time, especially at a loud volume. It just seems the large excursion to create that bass would be a problem for the upper register duties. No one said anything about the top driver I suggested above so at least that part must be good to go. I couldn’t find any distortion figures����*♂️
I completely agree, for the task, a 3 way right? But then we have this jbl m2 that has an F3 of 30hz, crossed at 800hz...and everything’s peachy? Really? Even at 117db?
My 3way runs the mid naked crossed at ~150 & 2.1khz....a two way rids me of a crossover but then puts on in the middle of the midrange. I can’t tell who’s winning ����*♂️

Last edited by camplo; 4th March 2019 at 03:26 AM.
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Old 4th March 2019, 04:24 AM   #12
Bill Coltrane is offline Bill Coltrane  Netherlands
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To my knowledge, the M2 and the Salon 2 are the 2 speakers that come out on top in double blind listening tests. So these completely different designs, one a 2 way one a 4 way, sound very very similar.

Apperantly it can be done.
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Old 4th March 2019, 05:55 AM   #13
camplo is offline camplo
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Well the FaitalPro driver I posted has a really nice frequency response. Does anyone know how to judge a compression driver beyond that cause I have no idea.

Any advice on search for a woofer to compliment my task? I’ve been told I can judge transient response by inductance. I’ve not come across a driver that play 30hz at high volume without an Xmax of 19hz. Maybe it’s just a matter of having a tuned port at desired lowest note? I have a balanced minidsp for crossover and eq. I’d like to have a linear response from 30hz and up.

Thanks for the help!
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Old 4th March 2019, 05:56 AM   #14
Rick PA Stadel is offline Rick PA Stadel  United States
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Maybe I should keep my opinions to myself since I haven't heard the M2, but physics does pose a few obstacles in a 2-way. If you're willing to tolerate a shortcoming here and there -- a touch of beaming in the woofer top octave, a little bit of FM when bass-heavy program material gets loud, allowing a bit of a roll-off above about 7 kHz improves the compression driver ruggedness since it has to get down to 1 kHz, then allowing a gentle roll-off in the bottom octave allows better efficiency from 60 to 150 or so. To overcome any of these exacts a penalty in overall efficiency.

JBL no doubt has plenty of clever folk on hand to tackle these issues, and they're certainly charging enough for the M2 to justify the effort, but they have the same laws of physics as the rest of us.

Best of luck.

Regards,
Rick

Last edited by Rick PA Stadel; 4th March 2019 at 05:58 AM.
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Old 4th March 2019, 06:56 AM   #15
mitchba is offline mitchba  Canada
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Maybe JBL 4722 Cinema 2 way loudspeaker or similar design. Frequency range 30 Hz to 20 kHz. Frequency Response (±3 dB): 40 Hz - 19 kHz
System Sensitivity: 104 dB, 2.83V @ 1 m with passive XO. https://www.jblpro.com/ProductAttach...S4722_0509.pdf

I have a pair and really like them, especially for the money. I biamp them with digital XO at 630 Hz. Similar 15" woofer design to the M2. I switched out the stock 2432 3" CD to a large format 4" JBL 2453h-SL aquaplas Ti. It's a mod after user notnyt at AVSForum tried several CD's on the 2384 wavguide, including the D2 used in the M2. The 2453h-SL is a smooth CD for reasonable $'s.

To get to 30 Hz, you need a big space. The top octave isn't the smoothest with a 1.5" exit driver. But a full range, high SPL, low distortion 2 way system. Maximum SPL: 130 dB, @ 1 m (3.3 ft) 136 dB peak.
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Old 4th March 2019, 09:33 AM   #16
chris661 is offline chris661  United Kingdom
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I can see two options here. One is high-sensitivity and will need a big box, the other can be done in a fairly compact design:

- Large-format compression driver on a big horn, crossed to a 15" PA woofer in the 600Hz range.
- 3-4" full-range driver, 12" HiFi subwoofer, crossover in the 2-300Hz range.

Lets take a look at your LF requirements. 120dB at 30Hz, 1m, groundplane, is quite an ask. A good 15" in a 150L ported box will just about do it, although you'll need something that'll manage 20mm p/p cone travel while staying linear. The top-end 15" PA sub drivers will manage that, and can play up to the 600Hz range just fine.

If it was mine, I'd use a pair of 15"s per side, and then find the biggest baddest compression driver I could. The RCF 4" diaphragm units would be on my list, as would the BMS coaxial compression drivers (only if you're willing to bend the rules - they are technically two drivers in one). I'd also go through all the 3" diaphragm units and find the ones that are happy running low. The EV DH1a would be up there, too, but only for a fixed installation. Those things are heavy.

Use the biggest HF horn you can find that still matches the dispersion angles you're looking for. The HF driver is going to have a difficult time at the bottom of it's passband, so give it all the help you can. You'd be looking at a finished cabinet volume of the order of 500L.

For the low-sensitivity option, I'd be looking at a Mark Audio Alpair 7.3, plus a pair of the aluminium-coned 12" Dayton sub drivers. Maybe sealed boxes, maybe ported and tuned to the lowest note you want to reproduce. See what Hornresp says.
You could probably have that done in 100L.

For all the systems, you'll need digital processing and a lot of clean power - a couple of kilowatts per side would be a start. I already have the amp on-hand, but a Powersoft T604 would be my go-to.

Chris
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Old 4th March 2019, 01:20 PM   #17
5th element is offline 5th element  United Kingdom
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This is where we really need Celestion to have their axiperiodic compression driver released. The Axi2050 would work well in a project like this.
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Old 4th March 2019, 01:47 PM   #18
plasnu is offline plasnu  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camplo View Post
I’m basically copying the jbl m2 specs. It’s just hard for me to accept that a woofer can play an 808 tuned to the 30s and handle lower to mid, midrange, at the same time, especially at a loud volume. It just seems the large excursion to create that bass would be a problem for the upper register duties.
I have never heard any commercial recording that has 808 tuned 30s. Mostly 40-80Hz.
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Old 4th March 2019, 01:53 PM   #19
chris661 is offline chris661  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5th element View Post
This is where we really need Celestion to have their axiperiodic compression driver released. The Axi2050 would work well in a project like this.
Yeah, I'm looking at those for the next HF unit in the PA system. The current 18Sound ND1460s aren't bad, though.

Chris
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Old 4th March 2019, 01:58 PM   #20
00940 is online now 00940  Belgium
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This one does 37hz-20khz -3dB but doesn't quite reach 120dB. If fits exactly Chris description above as option 1.

http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/do...i_Calpamos.pdf
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/li...D_Calpamos.pdf
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