Or as being pointed by Earl Geddes some parameters are not this relevant, imd and thd being some of them*.
That said coax Tannoy style does have imd as high is modulated by woofer moving.
If you want to limit that high pass around 300hz the woofer and go threeway.
Sorry to bring this back but it was my point reintroducing coax to the discussion some pages ago.
Westminster are highly regarded yes, but in pro circle the 215 dmt, 15dmt or the Buckingham and Dreadnought where the weapon of choice for good reason.
* up to a point obviously. I know this is counter intuitive but just think about triode amplifier they introduce much more thd however they are still in use and highly regarded.
About thd, Nelson Pass's 'first watt' range is interesting as he is proposing different models with different ratio of 2nd and third harmonic distortion which give them different 'personality', some being compared to triode amplifiers.
Despite that fact ( relatively higher thd than some other brands or technology) i don't think they could be determined as fuzzbox and the one i've heard ( F5 and Threshold models) are amongst the most transparent sounding amp i've heard.
That said coax Tannoy style does have imd as high is modulated by woofer moving.
If you want to limit that high pass around 300hz the woofer and go threeway.
Sorry to bring this back but it was my point reintroducing coax to the discussion some pages ago.
Westminster are highly regarded yes, but in pro circle the 215 dmt, 15dmt or the Buckingham and Dreadnought where the weapon of choice for good reason.
* up to a point obviously. I know this is counter intuitive but just think about triode amplifier they introduce much more thd however they are still in use and highly regarded.
About thd, Nelson Pass's 'first watt' range is interesting as he is proposing different models with different ratio of 2nd and third harmonic distortion which give them different 'personality', some being compared to triode amplifiers.
Despite that fact ( relatively higher thd than some other brands or technology) i don't think they could be determined as fuzzbox and the one i've heard ( F5 and Threshold models) are amongst the most transparent sounding amp i've heard.
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Hi Mitch,
how does a transient bass sound? I ask this, because I´ve read, for example, that the Strauss SE-MF-2 (mentioned earlier in this thread) are supposed to have the best transient, at least some Pros are saying/writing this ("best transient they ever heard").
I dont know if it´s true, but how would a speaker with bad, or let´s say not so good transient, sound/compare with a good one?
Thanks,
Chris
Hi CDM, i'm not Mitchba but here is my take on this,
low end content is mostly transient signal* ( think about a kickdrum). If the loudspeaker doesn't have good transient response it will compress signal and or induce slower response to it ( high group delay).
As a result the low end can sound 'bigger' than it really is ( from transient smearing) and/ or somewhat slow ( i don't like this term but it is often used in audiophile words to define groupdelay).
My own feeling about that is that a loudspeaker with good behavior about transient may not sound as impressive as a bad one short term but long term you'll be able to spot non natural reproduction. Long term you'll too find the good one being more 'vivid' about reproduction.
At least this is how i perceive things.
* this is true to acoustic instrument. If you listen to electronic music it may not be obvious as the sound are abstract by nature. For me it is most important with acoustic double bass, kick drums, taikko drums,...the exception being organ. If you listen to electronic dub, d&b, bassmusic in general you may have droning bass which doesn't exist in real life and are more difficult for drivers. A sustained 30hz note with high rms level doesn't really exist in real life but with electronic instruments it happen.
And here transient are usually less a concern for the drivers than their ability to withstand the torture this sustained sound represent to drivers. Think about thermal compression.
low end content is mostly transient signal* ( think about a kickdrum). If the loudspeaker doesn't have good transient response it will compress signal and or induce slower response to it ( high group delay).
As a result the low end can sound 'bigger' than it really is ( from transient smearing) and/ or somewhat slow ( i don't like this term but it is often used in audiophile words to define groupdelay).
My own feeling about that is that a loudspeaker with good behavior about transient may not sound as impressive as a bad one short term but long term you'll be able to spot non natural reproduction. Long term you'll too find the good one being more 'vivid' about reproduction.
At least this is how i perceive things.
* this is true to acoustic instrument. If you listen to electronic music it may not be obvious as the sound are abstract by nature. For me it is most important with acoustic double bass, kick drums, taikko drums,...the exception being organ. If you listen to electronic dub, d&b, bassmusic in general you may have droning bass which doesn't exist in real life and are more difficult for drivers. A sustained 30hz note with high rms level doesn't really exist in real life but with electronic instruments it happen.
And here transient are usually less a concern for the drivers than their ability to withstand the torture this sustained sound represent to drivers. Think about thermal compression.
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Like light, with sound our ears always seek to equalize, some aspect that has been accepted as passable, allowing other aspects of grandeur to not lose face, may stand out as obvious once the passable aspect is directly contrasted by the audition of another loudspeaker that succeeds greatly at the aspect the other loudspeaker only passes as good enough.
I personally think IMD is really important when judging eq is the task, IMD and power compression augment the level of frequencies produced. As well, having the source become singular helps in the perception of balance or unbalance of the spectrum. I couldn’t tell you which plays a bigger role but I feel IMD is a larger factor and that it can even increase power compression.
So to entertain, is there even a 15 driver that I can mount my 2451 too? Aren’t there issues with the xover in crossovers that present their own negatives?
I personally think IMD is really important when judging eq is the task, IMD and power compression augment the level of frequencies produced. As well, having the source become singular helps in the perception of balance or unbalance of the spectrum. I couldn’t tell you which plays a bigger role but I feel IMD is a larger factor and that it can even increase power compression.
So to entertain, is there even a 15 driver that I can mount my 2451 too? Aren’t there issues with the xover in crossovers that present their own negatives?
None suggested/recommended that I could find, though 300 Hz XO, no woofer: https://www.jblpro.com/pages/pub/components/21929394.pdf
Always with passives AFAIK, no experience [yet] with modern DSP.
GM
Always with passives AFAIK, no experience [yet] with modern DSP.
GM
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Are you talking about coax driver or regular 15" Camplo?
If you are talking about coax, the new eminence needs 1" cd iirc.
In France we have some PHL model (5230) which accept 1,4" cd but... very few info about them.
About xover yes they can be tricky, but you can have good results.
Have you seen the Taipuu 3way (1x15" coax+ 1x18")?
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Hi cdm, what krivium says 
The thing I remembered with that transmission line was how (subjectively) effortless the deep bass was to 20 Hz. No sign of compression (at normal listening levels), no overhang, and non-resonant sounding. Pure sounding like a pipe organ. I know, pretty subjective, but that low frequency bass quality really sounded good and has stuck in my mind for many years.
Now I have dual 15" (ported) bass cabs down to 45 Hz crossing over two 18" subwoofers that can go pretty low. Using DSP there is very little group delay and the frequency and phase is mostly flat down to 10 Hz. Sounds really good, but compared to the cost, I sometimes wonder about building a proper transmission line and selling the subs... forever design tradeoffs.
The thing I remembered with that transmission line was how (subjectively) effortless the deep bass was to 20 Hz. No sign of compression (at normal listening levels), no overhang, and non-resonant sounding. Pure sounding like a pipe organ. I know, pretty subjective, but that low frequency bass quality really sounded good and has stuck in my mind for many years.Now I have dual 15" (ported) bass cabs down to 45 Hz crossing over two 18" subwoofers that can go pretty low. Using DSP there is very little group delay and the frequency and phase is mostly flat down to 10 Hz. Sounds really good, but compared to the cost, I sometimes wonder about building a proper transmission line and selling the subs... forever design tradeoffs.
These are the one from diysoundgroup:
Vortex Speaker Kits | HiFiCircuit
Iirc this is a colaborative effort between Eminence/ Denovo/ Diysoundgroup. The one in the previous link are from Denovo but Eminence have more PA oriented new models from this effort:
Eminence KappaLite KL3015CX-8 15 inch high power coaxial speaker with lightweight neodymium magnet. The Eminence KappaLite KL3015CX-8 is a 15" 8 ohm coaxial speaker.
The curve of Vortex15 are pretty good. Is this worth for studio i don't know.
I've heard 12" from BMS which were quite good ( but short on bass). Taipuu use BMS 15".
Vortex Speaker Kits | HiFiCircuit
Iirc this is a colaborative effort between Eminence/ Denovo/ Diysoundgroup. The one in the previous link are from Denovo but Eminence have more PA oriented new models from this effort:
Eminence KappaLite KL3015CX-8 15 inch high power coaxial speaker with lightweight neodymium magnet. The Eminence KappaLite KL3015CX-8 is a 15" 8 ohm coaxial speaker.
The curve of Vortex15 are pretty good. Is this worth for studio i don't know.
I've heard 12" from BMS which were quite good ( but short on bass). Taipuu use BMS 15".
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Good to know, thanks!
Really? When did they switch from Altec 604s? I thought it was somewhat later when Altec's service was going away.
GM
I always thought they used monitor Gold at Abbey Road mastering...
I'm sure i have a picture of Pink Floyd in front of a pair of Gold monitors when they mastered Dark Side of the Moon in there.
One thing is for sure, Manley's mastering monitors were 12" Tannoy with Manley's own filter and box.
Old fashioned you are not GM. The Altec 604 or Tannoy really is a matter of preference and which side of Atlantic you are located.
Abbey Road mastering switched from Quested to B&W some years ago. Not all engineer in there seems happy with that from what i've been told.
And I can understand why.
I already told it but at 'The Exchange' ( the mastering studio which made almost half my collection of vinyls - most of them by Simon Davey which is the better engineer for vinyl worldwide in my view- and big parts of CD i own) they used ( and still use) Tannoy DMT15II.
I'm sure i have a picture of Pink Floyd in front of a pair of Gold monitors when they mastered Dark Side of the Moon in there.
One thing is for sure, Manley's mastering monitors were 12" Tannoy with Manley's own filter and box.
Old fashioned you are not GM. The Altec 604 or Tannoy really is a matter of preference and which side of Atlantic you are located.
Abbey Road mastering switched from Quested to B&W some years ago. Not all engineer in there seems happy with that from what i've been told.
And I can understand why.
I already told it but at 'The Exchange' ( the mastering studio which made almost half my collection of vinyls - most of them by Simon Davey which is the better engineer for vinyl worldwide in my view- and big parts of CD i own) they used ( and still use) Tannoy DMT15II.
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Very informative posts, guys!
Krivium, You seem to have quite a lot of experience in studio work or at least with studio monitors.
I acknowledge your points made in the last few posts wrt tubes and specific 'voicing' of both speakers and amps.
My brother has a lot of experience with Audio Note UK gear and used to run demos at local shows together with the official AN demo guy (who btw tends to play way too loud most of the time).
While AN certainly does a lot measurement based R&D stuff inhouse - they have the best tools in their labs, all their products are tailored towards a specific 'signature', which, as they put it, goes beyond measurements alone.
Krivium, You seem to have quite a lot of experience in studio work or at least with studio monitors.
I acknowledge your points made in the last few posts wrt tubes and specific 'voicing' of both speakers and amps.
My brother has a lot of experience with Audio Note UK gear and used to run demos at local shows together with the official AN demo guy (who btw tends to play way too loud most of the time).
While AN certainly does a lot measurement based R&D stuff inhouse - they have the best tools in their labs, all their products are tailored towards a specific 'signature', which, as they put it, goes beyond measurements alone.
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