Right, always comes up a half octave short, so for a given expo/hypex loading requires a bigger tractrix due to its acoustic axial length being 'flattened'/'dissipated' over its wider mouth. Not many 'free lunches' in audio design.
GM
0.Pricelist of the only real source of various horns on the internet.
Hows the minimum phase compared to the tractrix?
The Min Phase is more or less CD, the Tractrix isn't.
It's essentially a huge waveguide, nearly a meter across, but only 30cm deep.
Those horns have never really become popular, but are supposed to sound very good.
Here's the thread of the developer including links to more info.
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If you go for the Tractrix, I would seriously consider this new Faital Pro driver.
This was supposedly designed for Tractrix horns > it has a radial phase plug.
Measurements were done with the LTH142, which is a rather small Tractrix horn.
It's recommended for 700Hz, but I'll bet with a bigger horn it will take 500-600Hz easily.
It'll probably save you quite a few bucks compared to the 951BePB.
The Ketone Polymer diaphragms sound silky smooth.
Personally, I would also consider a Faital woofer. These are among the best I've heard.
This was supposedly designed for Tractrix horns > it has a radial phase plug.
Measurements were done with the LTH142, which is a rather small Tractrix horn.
It's recommended for 700Hz, but I'll bet with a bigger horn it will take 500-600Hz easily.
It'll probably save you quite a few bucks compared to the 951BePB.
The Ketone Polymer diaphragms sound silky smooth.
Personally, I would also consider a Faital woofer. These are among the best I've heard.
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Thanks for the research Ro808, its helping a lot. I am committed to the jbl 2541 with the aqauplas diaphragms at this point. I am still rather interested in the Tractrix and I am pondering the comment from GM about horn size vs what its mating to... I don't know if that included baffle width, or dynamic driver width, but my guess is baffle width. The 350 is 13inches wide, if I broke the rule by a few inches I don't think it would be detrimental. I could probably keep the baffle 17inches, I think.
So I guess I’d copy another similar jbl design and stack the 15”s vertically. I’m trying to score some jbl 2509 mounts at a decent price.
If you know a Faital woofer that can compete with the AE 15m, let’s see it
So I guess I’d copy another similar jbl design and stack the 15”s vertically. I’m trying to score some jbl 2509 mounts at a decent price.
If you know a Faital woofer that can compete with the AE 15m, let’s see it
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The Faital 15PR400 is the obvious alternative. It has been used by many forum members and manufacturers.
In this thread both AE and Faital are discussed.
In Europe AE is ridiculously expensive, but even if it wasn't I would still prefer Faital, because of their undisputed reliability.
In this thread both AE and Faital are discussed.
In Europe AE is ridiculously expensive, but even if it wasn't I would still prefer Faital, because of their undisputed reliability.
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This is a 1-page thread with a reply from John Janowitz (AE).
He actually recommends Faital (a compression driver in this case).
Anyway, the TD15M is an excellent driver as well and in the US probably less than twice the price of the Faital.
He actually recommends Faital (a compression driver in this case).
Anyway, the TD15M is an excellent driver as well and in the US probably less than twice the price of the Faital.
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I use the combination HF146 (without extension "R" however) and XT1464 on a large MTM. I am quite happy with it. It does by no means have anything like horn honk or the like. Althogh I have already heard a Radian in a very nice studio monitor I can't tell you anything about how the Faital and the Radian compare, because it is quite some time back when I had the opportunity and I wasn't able to play anything familiar on that monitor.
Regards
Charles
Regards
Charles
Yes, I cross it at 650 Hz. But I must say that I don't listen too loud on average. When I really crank it during my "insane phases" the lowest LED on my HF power amp blinks once in a while - meaning 4 Watts peak into 8 Ohms. Faital specifies that driver for 40 W AES and 80 W Peak @ 650 Hz crossover (half of what is specified for 900 Hz xover). So it is still almost idling in this situation. This reminds me that I will have to get a cheap SPL meter some day in order to know how loud I listen approximately.
Edit: These 650 Hz are a compromise of course. For the HF driver it is on the rather low side and for the woofer section (this accounts for both the drivers AND the MTM topology in particular) it is on the high side. But AE woofers wouldn't have problems with a higher crossover frequency I think.
Regards
Charles
Edit: These 650 Hz are a compromise of course. For the HF driver it is on the rather low side and for the woofer section (this accounts for both the drivers AND the MTM topology in particular) it is on the high side. But AE woofers wouldn't have problems with a higher crossover frequency I think.
Regards
Charles
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Could be. But one should be careful. We don't know the Sd of the HF1440 but the x-max seems to be less than that of the HF146. But if it reaches 500 Hz without EQing on a suitable horn then that might not even matter that much for home listening. I wonder how much it will cost because the data sheet at least looks very nice.
Regards
Charles
Regards
Charles
In any case, the LTH142 is too small to assess the low-end capabilities.
But this sounds promising: "It was designed with great attention to detail using FEM simulation so as to withstand the important mechanical excursions related to low frequencies."
The current top of the line HF2000 sells for € 336. I expect the HF1440 will cost 50 to 100 more.
In accordance with the classics (like GM's avatar), I've always considered 400-500Hz a nice lower limit for large format compression drivers.
But this sounds promising: "It was designed with great attention to detail using FEM simulation so as to withstand the important mechanical excursions related to low frequencies."
The current top of the line HF2000 sells for € 336. I expect the HF1440 will cost 50 to 100 more.
In accordance with the classics (like GM's avatar), I've always considered 400-500Hz a nice lower limit for large format compression drivers.
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So if I stacked the two 15's on top of each other playing the same frequencies....cool beans, but I think someone suggested an arrangement where I low passed the bottom woofer, something about a better polar? Or did they say, high pass the upper one....I'd have to go back through the thread.
Alternatively I was also thinking if I set it up as a 3 way I could use the AE 15M for the mid and the AE 15H for the bottom woofer
Anyone have any suggestions? I mean the plan is to have these 2 15m's running ~700hz-30hz and room correction for each driver separately to the sweet spot, should be a pretty accurate monitoring situation.
Alternatively I was also thinking if I set it up as a 3 way I could use the AE 15M for the mid and the AE 15H for the bottom woofer
Anyone have any suggestions? I mean the plan is to have these 2 15m's running ~700hz-30hz and room correction for each driver separately to the sweet spot, should be a pretty accurate monitoring situation.
Bottom, to create a 2.5 [mid] bass combo + horn.
Right, this puts the acoustic c-t-c spacing between the upper 15 and horn whereas the acoustic center of the vertical dual 15s is between the two.
If you don't need a super wide polar, then mounting them horizontally is preferred like George Augsperger does on his large studio monitors.
If going with the 15M for mid-bass-up, which I would choose, then limit it to ~60 Hz, which opens up the bass for a prosound 18 or even 21 for the two bottom octaves since excursion increases 4x/octave, better to increase piston area when space permits to keep power requirements reasonable, SQ up.
GM
Right, this puts the acoustic c-t-c spacing between the upper 15 and horn whereas the acoustic center of the vertical dual 15s is between the two.
If you don't need a super wide polar, then mounting them horizontally is preferred like George Augsperger does on his large studio monitors.
If going with the 15M for mid-bass-up, which I would choose, then limit it to ~60 Hz, which opens up the bass for a prosound 18 or even 21 for the two bottom octaves since excursion increases 4x/octave, better to increase piston area when space permits to keep power requirements reasonable, SQ up.
GM
I tried a TD15M-Apollo as 2 way vs 3 way with both one and two SBP15 at 70-80db levels. The 3 way with one SBP15s sounded better than two way and doubling the bass woofers improves it further. This was in a 700sqft living room.
So for me it wasnt an overkill to do 3 ways with another set of woofers for bass even at low/normal listening levels.
I've also had the same 3 way system with one SBP15-Apollo. So that begs the question of how important/audible is the Apollo motor upgrade?
Two non apollo SBP15 sounded better than one SBP15-Apollo so Apollo is useful if you have cabinet size restrictions.
I did not try 2 SBP15-Apollo per channel though, way too costly a venture for me.