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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Is it possible to cover the whole spectrum, high spl, low distortion with a 2-way?
Is it possible to cover the whole spectrum, high spl, low distortion with a 2-way?
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Old 22nd July 2019, 03:28 AM   #1401
camplo is offline camplo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ro808 View Post
Quote that may shed a light:

"One might ask why on Earth someone would do such a thing. Yet rest assured that there’s a number of perfectly valid reasons. As Vladimir explains, in terms of absence of an enclosure, it is almost obvious. Internal standing waves, reflections which interfere with driver cones, resonances, energy storage, compression, time domain (phase) distortions and so on are gone when the box itself is gone. The sound is radiated solely with drivers and not with enclosure or its baffles. The other important feature of a loudspeaker without a baffle is lateral radiation absence of it. One doesn’t have nearby walls, floor or ceiling radiation, which leads to less room resonances. Hence it’s for the best to picture Bespoke P15 as a somewhat OB alike design, yet pushed even further in the box-free direction. The downside? Since there’s no pressure built-up in a resonant chamber, bass drivers have to be big and there’s no way around it.
Reflector Audio Bespoke P15 is different from typical OB products not only because it doesn’t sport a baffle at all. Its four 15″ long-throw (18 mm of excursion from peak to peak) paper cone woofers aligned in a four-leaved clover shape are inverted. Yes, their membranes fire directly on a wall in front of a listener and that’s very unusual. Here Vladimir chimed in again. He explained that the inversion itself was done in order to more closely approximate all four big drivers’ acoustic axis. The specific angles of said transducers were introduced to focus sound radiation in space at 1.2m in the Bespoke P15 case and from that point their coherence is achieved. These angles translate to increased sound efficiency radiation forward, which yields improved adaptation and an acoustic system performance in problematic listening rooms. This is what Roland Janevich’s patented invention is all about exactly.

The manufacturer’s suggestion is that a minimum distance from a speaker to a listening spot should be no less than 2.2 m. As far as space behind our Latvian dish goes, 0.5 m or more is advised."

This here almost makes it sounds like OB has less issues than the opposite....yet there are no OB studio monitors?
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Old 22nd July 2019, 06:33 AM   #1402
tuyen is offline tuyen  Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ro808 View Post
Click the image to open in full size.

The 124A is a stunning woofer, provided the Alnico is recharged and the surrounds are fresh.
It's probably one of the best 12" woofers ever, as well as one of the best looking, if you ask me.
However, it's more akin to a hifi woofer than a pro woofer, which implies considerable attenuation of a horn/comp. driver.

You may consider an AMT or wg loaded dome tweeter.
Yes I guess you are right. the driver is only 91db sensitivity. It will be better paired with a traditional tweeter (with or without waveguide).


I'm still interested in building a high sensitivity 'simple' full-range 2-way.. the faital pro hf units look great (on paper anyway).

The Cornscala D 2-way design is certainly appealing. Easy to build too.
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Old 22nd July 2019, 12:04 PM   #1403
4real is offline 4real  Netherlands
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Originally Posted by Ro808 View Post
It's from an online hifi magazine, so I would suggest to read between the lines.
It doesn't say that it is or is not a coax. In essence it probably behaved more or less as a coax. It's not really too different from a Bullfrog: just a woofer with a horn squeezed in, only now it has 4. The fact that it's an OB is a separate design choice. The 2 woofer version is different of course. It will make an MTM and will probably have wider horizontal dispersion because of it.

Of source there is one big difference to a true coax, and that is that lobing behaviour will depend on the x-over point (als slope in the end). With a center to center spacing of less than 46cm for the 18" version, an x-over of than 700Hz should give a good result. Some more interesting stuff can be found in this topic regarding the two woofer version: Study of a Dipole/Cardioid Bass Horn , where a V-shaped dipole horn is simulated.

Quote:
Just to be clear: personally, I am not excited about the concept.
However, it seems to have piqued the interest of my fellow countryman.
Guilty as charged . Probably most of you thinks it looks quirky and strange.. which is correct of course, but I kind of like it. I guess you can't argue about (bad) taste
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Old 22nd July 2019, 12:07 PM   #1404
Ro808 is online now Ro808  Netherlands
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Originally Posted by camplo View Post
This here almost makes it sounds like OB has less issues than the opposite....yet there are no OB studio monitors?
Not that I know of.

Despite my reservations, I'd like to hear a Reflector Bespoke.
So far, it hasn't taken the audio world by storm
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Old 22nd July 2019, 12:29 PM   #1405
phase_accurate is offline phase_accurate
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I heard that some seem to like Quad ESLs for monitoring. Those would would definitely be dipoles. But this would be for acoustic music and definitley not hip-hop !

Regards

Charles
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Old 22nd July 2019, 12:35 PM   #1406
Ro808 is online now Ro808  Netherlands
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Originally Posted by tuyen View Post
Yes I guess you are right. the driver is only 91db sensitivity. It will be better paired with a traditional tweeter (with or without waveguide).
Sensitivity appears to be even lower.

The 124A is more suitable for (sub)woofer duties.

Last edited by Ro808; 22nd July 2019 at 12:53 PM.
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Old 22nd July 2019, 12:41 PM   #1407
jzagaja is offline jzagaja  Poland
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Is it possible to cover the whole spectrum, high spl, low distortion with a 2-way?
Quote:
Originally Posted by phase_accurate View Post
I heard that some seem to like Quad ESLs for monitoring. Those would would definitely be dipoles. But this would be for acoustic music and definitley not hip-hop !
Regards
Charles
After building many horn speakers I settled with original ESL57 (not ESL63). I enjoy every type of music.
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Old 22nd July 2019, 12:49 PM   #1408
Ro808 is online now Ro808  Netherlands
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phase_accurate View Post
I heard that some seem to like Quad ESLs for monitoring. Those would would definitely be dipoles. But this would be for acoustic music and definitley not hip-hop !

Regards

Charles

Yes, a friend of mine sold ESLs to some studios in the past.


I think, the woofers out in the open turns many people of.
The Reflectors in that small Berlin club are probably subject to a lot of: finger tapping, moist, smoke, dust etc.

Last edited by Ro808; 22nd July 2019 at 12:57 PM.
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Old 22nd July 2019, 04:31 PM   #1409
camplo is offline camplo
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What is the technical reasons against using open baffle config for studio monitoring? I thought it was because of how much it excites the room energy which is counter productive of only wanting to hear direct signal like the focus of near-field.
It seems that with some design engineering you could still create this objective with OB, by creating a room covered in sound absorption.
Also, the radiation not coming from the front of the loud speaker should be pretty accurate in comparison to enclosure radiation so that helps things along but that is probably already a know plus of the OB design.
Supposed less vertical dispersion? That’s probably not so true or insignificant in comparison to enclosed design. Speaking of.....I though enclosed designs are supposed to be free of baffle radiation....I thought 3/4” inch MDF was good for most? The other claimed benefits of OB I can understand.
So many questions....
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Old 22nd July 2019, 04:34 PM   #1410
Ro808 is online now Ro808  Netherlands
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ESLs are very good, unbeatable in some respects, but limited with regards to primarily bass and SPL.

I've listened to quite a few ESLs: 57s, 63s, 989s.
For jazz, vocal, chamber music and similar these are briljant.
But as soon as you'll start to listen to heavy rock, large orchestral works, hip hop etc. at moderately loud levels they collapse.

I remember visiting audio stores in my teens... We brought some tracks along that were perfect to get any electrostat to its knees within seconds.
The faces of the salesmen and their arguments were priceless.
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