Worked a late night, dinner shower bed, but no way was I going to pass up on quoting this lol!
Whgeiger, like you, I actually recognize a two way mated to a sub, as a three way, but technically the sub is a third party to the mains, so despite the enlightened approach, it makes for good fun to say yes, lol, especially if you know that I know that you know I know....So yeah I was playing the line but...,I am the curator, after all, and a good player of devils advocate. Look at all learning and clarification.
Could we go extreme? What about a hf section mated to an array of 15”s....like 5 of them? Maybe we can get rid of the sub then? I dunno, but you guys sure make for doom good conversation!
Ro808 I want to use the 18h+ in a sealed box, still waiting for a reply from AE to see about augmenting the order a 16ohm voice cool 😎
Whgeiger the loudspeakers you suggested, I will investigate them and get back to you
GM you said some things too...to which I will reply...and someone said something about why use 12”s on top the sub... Zvu maybe....I believe that the larger the diaphragm, the less dynamic compression and the more dynamic potential.
Hello,
A part of the signal is dissipated by the spider frictions, this calculation is ok for a pistonic motion and it would be surprising if it occurs at 300Hz with a 12' woofer
At 300Hz the whole MMS is woobbling on a chladni beat.
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Funny you should mention this; early on I started to post about my 'adventures' in making really large point source systems from which the focused MTM ultimately came from.
I had accumulated all manner of drivers from the mass quantities of curb/dumpster discards of the '60s as folks downsized and/or switched to stereo, so in '68 started with a cluster of tweeters and added successive 'rings' of ever larger drivers mounted to a 4 ft dia, [flat] parabolic bowl shaped piece of pegboard.
Needless to say, without proper test gear, and modern DSP not even a sci-fi dream, it didn't sound very good, especially since I wasn't willing to take the time to do much more than basic XOs, but learned a lot none the less.
Fast forward to the '90s and get trained to install, calibrate Sony front projectors and a high end HT owner that 'wants' some major speakers like in the theaters of his youth [Altec 'A' series], but with not enough room for [3] big, truncated front loaded horns and a large separate LFE system for < 80 Hz, suggested an Altec multicell/288 [1.4"] horn surrounded by [4] focused Altec 515E 15" for the mains down to 20 Hz to pay 'lip service' to the cinema palaces of days gone by, but for reasons never made clear to me they ultimately chose extra well damped 511E/288 rotated vertically, 416C.
With dbx electronics, it was better overall than most systems I've auditioned until DSL's SH50+DTS20 system some years ago set the bar for me.
Anyway, yes, more 15" could be used, they originally proposed [8] to get a decent percentage of the mid-bass horn's ~[15] 15" mouth area, but was nixed due to the budget getting so tight after SWMBO did a major decor 'upgrade'. So much for the merely rich not needing budgets, apparently they live beyond their means like most of us!
GM
This would be, in my opinion, a foundation for a highest sound quality. 12"midwoofer, 1" CD in a waveguide that holds its pattern lower than 1200Hz and subs.
Could we go extreme? What about a hf section mated to an array of 15”s....like 5 of them? Maybe we can get rid of the sub then? I dunno, but you guys sure make for doom good conversation!
You wouldn't be the first to try it:
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+1; the pioneers could have done whatever they believed best overall for the app, yet W.E.'s first multi-way studio monitor was a 12" 'full range' driver out of a console mated to a 800 Hz, 1" horn system, but for whatever reason, within a few years the competition had switched to a 15" to become the norm.
I built a lot of very popular 'el cheapo' speakers for others in the '60s-'70s using console 12", Magnavox, Motorola horns capped off way up high to get a ~800 Hz 1st order, which worked well until folks started replacing their low power tube amps with variable DF tone controls for [then] high power SS receivers, popping horn drivers like pistol caps after dialing in max bass/treble trying to match the tube's 'smiley face' response.
GM
I built a lot of very popular 'el cheapo' speakers for others in the '60s-'70s using console 12", Magnavox, Motorola horns capped off way up high to get a ~800 Hz 1st order, which worked well until folks started replacing their low power tube amps with variable DF tone controls for [then] high power SS receivers, popping horn drivers like pistol caps after dialing in max bass/treble trying to match the tube's 'smiley face' response.
GM
Hi Norman,
Could you please tell us what your current speaker setup is?
Thanks!
Best regards
Peter
Could you please tell us what your current speaker setup is?
Thanks!
Best regards
Peter
hehe indeed... most people over 35 can go over 16k for sure... (even 14k is hard I think
)
hehe indeed... most people over 35 can go over 16k for sure... (even 14k is hard I think
You mean "Can't go", right? My wife is an audiologist and by far most people over 30 are losing the high end by several dB. Audiologists don't even test above 8kHz because there is virtually no information up there. People think that they can hear up there because if they put in a signal at those frequencies they can hear it. But that's not the point. The point is that it is usually down by 10-20 dB above 10kHz. We would never allow for an amplifier to spec to the -20 dB points, so why do we allow it in hearing.
Also above 10 kHz. the air is absorbing sound rapidly with distance. So unless you are right on top of the source there is nothing > 10kHz to hear. That is why nature has not given us that ability - for the most part. Cats can hear > 20 kHz, but they live in a world where those frequencies propagate, i.e. very small.
Norman, yah hard to argue with the price and wonder if it is diminishing returns even at this level... (i.e. Denovo Audio HTM-12)
What about the horn profile? I have never heard the Seos...
Ah, I see you have the JBL am6212/00 Nice! I really like that PT-H1010HF 100 x 100 waveguide. I was considering that as a replacement for the 2384, but I don't know how low it can go? Must sound good. I just can't give up the double 15"
Hello Mitchba
Well it depends on the driver. I know I was surprised when I measured one with a large 4" format compression driver. With the smaller 3" I can see why 1k would be the limit but you can get them a bit lower with the bigger driver. Here are a couple of measurements so you can see what I mean. I have the older PTH1010 with the throat pinches.
Rob
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OK GM, about the comment (the best 2way is a 3way, the best 3way is a 4way)....Those aren't by words but an illustration of the thought process of a type of elitist towards their favorite config, on up the scale. Theres always trade offs, we all know that.
Zvu, maybe if you made it make sense with some more information, I'd be interested in running a 12" mid. Like I stated, I believe that the larger the diaphragm the better the dynamic performance, (less compression of). When it comes to the attribute of dynamic contrast, horns seem to be the mainstay, or pinnical, so my goal is/was to get as much of the spectrum into a horn as possible. This "dynamic contrast" is the main focus for me, right now. I would love to be able to get 200hz on up, out of a horn (as I gander at the tractrix 100 on autotech lol). So any way, then I learned about the restraints of the upper register and landed in the middle at a 1.5" exit and a 350hz round horn.
Zvu, maybe if you made it make sense with some more information, I'd be interested in running a 12" mid. Like I stated, I believe that the larger the diaphragm the better the dynamic performance, (less compression of). When it comes to the attribute of dynamic contrast, horns seem to be the mainstay, or pinnical, so my goal is/was to get as much of the spectrum into a horn as possible. This "dynamic contrast" is the main focus for me, right now. I would love to be able to get 200hz on up, out of a horn (as I gander at the tractrix 100 on autotech lol). So any way, then I learned about the restraints of the upper register and landed in the middle at a 1.5" exit and a 350hz round horn.
Camplo: have you looked at or considered the Klipsch K402? some info below.
How to dissect polar patterns and frequency responses for horns. - Technical/Modifications - The Klipsch Audio Community
How to dissect polar patterns and frequency responses for horns. - Technical/Modifications - The Klipsch Audio Community
itchba,
Yea, i miss the double 15"s, no sub needed.
Not sure on the seos, but an increasing slow flare is better than straight with a nice round over (i think). The 2384 is amazing to cross way down to 750hz, but i think the round over flare is audible especially the drastic round over top / bottom (limit to 40 degree dispersion). Even foam catching roundover, i prefer the smaller pth.
Maybe the os is better, idk.
The os to my eyes has a round over at the mouth, is it audible ?
Planet10 dabbled with a seos horn and didn't care for it.
People in reviews of tempest / seos speaker didn't love it for music.
I was this close on buying 3 tempest fusions, but they stopped making them.
Now i realize my listening is 80% radio / 17% cd / 3% bluray.
With hbo now, netflix, hulu, and amazon, stereo isn't used much.
But i do sit and listen passively to radio 3+ hours daily.
Yup, horn i have is the throat pinched pth 100x100.
Dispersion is flatter to 8khz up and down looking at di plots.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAAegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw2IkfilKFQ1aPLXpBTV_0SZ
Dualtriode has z graphs of the newer pth horn ($63).
4.3" deep, you see a zhump at 1,600.
Rule of thumb would need 1/2 wavelength for smoothish treble, so 1,200hz crossed, maybe 5.64" deep.
But I'm fuzzy on horn zpeaks.
Dualtriode crosses it at 2khz.
In the newer pt horn line is the jbl am5212/00 or am7212/00.
Ain't cheap, and spec'd 1600hz.
A bit high for my likes for a 12" (dispersion and detail).
But pretty consistent dspersion plot.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjABegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw2WD3fGKRpffRGrOvmKUdfe
I'd love to see freq response of a 3" (2431 ?) on the newest pth1010hf-1.
Maybe a spherical contour would have some of the least reflections.
Jmlc seems like tractrix but huge round over.
I think the dispersion of that horn crossing at 1.2khz would be too narrow for me at 5khz.
Anyone know if i take my 12"off the floor and add another 12", could i get more slam ?
I read where someone lifted a diysound group mbm (mid bass module) 18" off the floor.
It was disasterous.
Yea, i miss the double 15"s, no sub needed.
Not sure on the seos, but an increasing slow flare is better than straight with a nice round over (i think). The 2384 is amazing to cross way down to 750hz, but i think the round over flare is audible especially the drastic round over top / bottom (limit to 40 degree dispersion). Even foam catching roundover, i prefer the smaller pth.
Maybe the os is better, idk.
The os to my eyes has a round over at the mouth, is it audible ?
Planet10 dabbled with a seos horn and didn't care for it.
People in reviews of tempest / seos speaker didn't love it for music.
I was this close on buying 3 tempest fusions, but they stopped making them.
Now i realize my listening is 80% radio / 17% cd / 3% bluray.
With hbo now, netflix, hulu, and amazon, stereo isn't used much.
But i do sit and listen passively to radio 3+ hours daily.
Yup, horn i have is the throat pinched pth 100x100.
Dispersion is flatter to 8khz up and down looking at di plots.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAAegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw2IkfilKFQ1aPLXpBTV_0SZ
Dualtriode has z graphs of the newer pth horn ($63).
4.3" deep, you see a zhump at 1,600.
Rule of thumb would need 1/2 wavelength for smoothish treble, so 1,200hz crossed, maybe 5.64" deep.
But I'm fuzzy on horn zpeaks.
Dualtriode crosses it at 2khz.
In the newer pt horn line is the jbl am5212/00 or am7212/00.
Ain't cheap, and spec'd 1600hz.
A bit high for my likes for a 12" (dispersion and detail).
But pretty consistent dspersion plot.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjABegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw2WD3fGKRpffRGrOvmKUdfe
I'd love to see freq response of a 3" (2431 ?) on the newest pth1010hf-1.
Maybe a spherical contour would have some of the least reflections.
Jmlc seems like tractrix but huge round over.
I think the dispersion of that horn crossing at 1.2khz would be too narrow for me at 5khz.
Anyone know if i take my 12"off the floor and add another 12", could i get more slam ?
I read where someone lifted a diysound group mbm (mid bass module) 18" off the floor.
It was disasterous.
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I used to use an active crossover as a preamp, but only 1 input (blu ray player).
I've been tempted for an active 2-way (2 x 12" @ 1.2khz to pth1010hf or newer pth1010hf-1 using 2431h).
But i listen to so much more music now with my onkyo receiver (radio, no pre out except sub), i don't think i want to go back to the active setup. Then I'd need an actual preamp with fm and surround.
I've been tempted for an active 2-way (2 x 12" @ 1.2khz to pth1010hf or newer pth1010hf-1 using 2431h).
But i listen to so much more music now with my onkyo receiver (radio, no pre out except sub), i don't think i want to go back to the active setup. Then I'd need an actual preamp with fm and surround.
Axial resonances happen, but it doesn't seem good (for the horns) to be looking at things this way.
The roundover isn't part of OS, it depends on how it's designed.
If setting on the floor it will be similar to dual 15", especially if you proportionately widen the baffle, but if the duals are spaced up then the second 12" is basically just replacing the floor loading.
GM