its more like 9500hz actually.
Test Bench: BMS 4507ND Dual Diaphragm Coaxial Planar Wave Driver | audioXpress
Doesnt matter cause the spike is basically seen in the spec sheet. I'm looking at the BMS 4592ND-8 so my worry is kinda irrelevant with the information that I can trust BMS spec sheets
Last edited:
No....... I can't say that the available coaxials have superb treble. The beyma coaxials are about the best you can find, the 4" and 6" are very nice, and I've found personal measurements where people have gotten flat response, on axis, without too much processing. I just feel that if I'm going to give into a compression driver on the high end I might as well go all out and run a CD
As I learn more I run into more road blocks.
I was entertaining the "B&C Speaker 4NDF34" for a mid, but they don't seem to sell it anywhere. The AE18h+ is a go. I'll probably order a pair very soon. A beryllium dome or the Byema TPl-150h for the top.
The things that have shifted my thinking; I experimented with a few systems, and came to the conclusion that IMD is a big thing for me, and that a woofer in a 2 way may possibly, not, handle the load, without being crossed somewhere just under 200hz or so. There's actually a rule, "no more than ~5 octaves" for a woofer in a system, before suffering in sq...I fear that I may be spoiled by my current system and that I may take too much notice to increasing the load to woofer by running a 2 way, the trade off being, the lack of single point source perception. I can optimize a 3 way by crossing over, as close as possible, where the speaker renders a Ka of .5, which is easy for the woofer, puts me right where I wanted to cross anyway (130-200) and then with a 4" mid, I'd would crossover at 2.1khz, just like my current system, or if I ran the Beyma TPl-150h, I'd cross over as low as possible, probably 1khz.
I am still researching, have been for the last cpl of months. The best I can see, for a two way, would be one that crossed at 500hz...which is possible according to the specs on the available waveguides. I just am not currently convinced that the available compression drivers are going to allow me to run a linear response from 500hz to ~19khz, cleanly.......specifically, I am not so certain about the distortion specs +10khz. I am searching for the cleanest Compression driver, I guess you could say. To be even more specific....If I can't find measurements showing distortion within the whole range....I won't touch it. Stop hiding specs. I need to see freq curve, along with distortion, NO SMOOTHING.
I'm also looking for DSP to run the whole thing, I would purchase 2 aurora dsps but I think I missed the bus on the kick starter. Minidsp was described in this thread as, lack luster, but, there are no alternatives either.
As I learn more I run into more road blocks.
I was entertaining the "B&C Speaker 4NDF34" for a mid, but they don't seem to sell it anywhere. The AE18h+ is a go. I'll probably order a pair very soon. A beryllium dome or the Byema TPl-150h for the top.
The things that have shifted my thinking; I experimented with a few systems, and came to the conclusion that IMD is a big thing for me, and that a woofer in a 2 way may possibly, not, handle the load, without being crossed somewhere just under 200hz or so. There's actually a rule, "no more than ~5 octaves" for a woofer in a system, before suffering in sq...I fear that I may be spoiled by my current system and that I may take too much notice to increasing the load to woofer by running a 2 way, the trade off being, the lack of single point source perception. I can optimize a 3 way by crossing over, as close as possible, where the speaker renders a Ka of .5, which is easy for the woofer, puts me right where I wanted to cross anyway (130-200) and then with a 4" mid, I'd would crossover at 2.1khz, just like my current system, or if I ran the Beyma TPl-150h, I'd cross over as low as possible, probably 1khz.
I am still researching, have been for the last cpl of months. The best I can see, for a two way, would be one that crossed at 500hz...which is possible according to the specs on the available waveguides. I just am not currently convinced that the available compression drivers are going to allow me to run a linear response from 500hz to ~19khz, cleanly.......specifically, I am not so certain about the distortion specs +10khz. I am searching for the cleanest Compression driver, I guess you could say. To be even more specific....If I can't find measurements showing distortion within the whole range....I won't touch it. Stop hiding specs. I need to see freq curve, along with distortion, NO SMOOTHING.
I'm also looking for DSP to run the whole thing, I would purchase 2 aurora dsps but I think I missed the bus on the kick starter. Minidsp was described in this thread as, lack luster, but, there are no alternatives either.
Last edited:
Don't bother with coaxial compression drivers. They aren't that useful for home audio, and you still need a horn big enough to cover the low frequencies.
TPL-150h wants to be crossed over at 2khz or above, and really needs a midwoofer no larger than 10 inches to match its directivity somewhat at the crossover point
What you really want to look at is the woofer and what compromises you want to make, then see if you can design a system around that.
18" + 8-10" + TPL150h or 1 inch compression driver + CD waveguide/horn
or
15" woofer + large 2 inch horn + driver to cross over somewhere around 700hz
If you go for the 15" option, you are trading off between sensitivity, box size, low end extension and power handling. Each driver favours a certain tradeoff over the others
TPL-150h wants to be crossed over at 2khz or above, and really needs a midwoofer no larger than 10 inches to match its directivity somewhat at the crossover point
What you really want to look at is the woofer and what compromises you want to make, then see if you can design a system around that.
18" + 8-10" + TPL150h or 1 inch compression driver + CD waveguide/horn
or
15" woofer + large 2 inch horn + driver to cross over somewhere around 700hz
If you go for the 15" option, you are trading off between sensitivity, box size, low end extension and power handling. Each driver favours a certain tradeoff over the others
Last edited:
There are lots of rules, that doesn't mean that breaking them won't yield you BETTER sound for some other reason.
I read a very good paper about doppler/IM distortion that took a look at its audibility and made the point that there is far more introduced in the analog tape used in recording and mastering than in your loudspeakers and yet it all seems to be inaudible. If anyone has that link handy, I'd love to have it.
Also thd audibility is controversial :
Geddes on Distortion perception
Don't compromise important things for things that are much less important!
I know no two people can agree on this, but, in order of importance :
1. Ability to get reasonably smooth frequency response on AND OFF axis. (this also means smooth polars). A little less smooth above 12k not such a big deal.
2. Directivity. Not that there's a BETTER, but get what you want. Don't settle for direct radiator if you want horn sound just so distortion specs look better on paper.
3. Resolution. CDs on horns seem to excel here. Can be somewhat predicted by CSD plots. Have to trust some others opinions unfortunately.
4. Coherence. This could be #3, or maybe even #2. It's really important. The ease of single driver speakers is real. I can't tell you how many very expensive 4 ways I've heard that are just not emotionally involving. Not exactly sure why, but fwiw, I'm convinced.
5. THD. I'm not sure at what level it's audible, but I like to see it reasonable because spikes can indicate problems with resonances and breakup which can be audible.
Because I have the best sound I've ever experienced with a two way, IM distortion doesn't make my list at all. I'm really worried that you will give up #1-4 because you are obsessing over distortion. The horns you heard that you liked, do you have any idea their distortion? When 1-4 are right, you don't care.
Last night I had a couple of buddies over. After a few rounds of craft cocktails we headed up to the listening room. I saw the clip lights on my amps flicker on a killer electronic track. That means about 800 watts into my 12" woofers. No signs of strain from my horns singing along happily with their 2 watts. It was LOUD, grins were a mile wide on my buddies. These CD's are spec'd to be running high power PA, but in a room in your house, they can cross much lower. If my 1" does fine, a 2" exit with the larger diaphragm is going to be perfectly fine covering 500+, and don't worry about the wiggles above 12k or some other specs that may not be audible. The two way recipe you have worked out is a blast to listen to, that's what matters.
I read a very good paper about doppler/IM distortion that took a look at its audibility and made the point that there is far more introduced in the analog tape used in recording and mastering than in your loudspeakers and yet it all seems to be inaudible. If anyone has that link handy, I'd love to have it.
Also thd audibility is controversial :
Geddes on Distortion perception
Don't compromise important things for things that are much less important!
I know no two people can agree on this, but, in order of importance :
1. Ability to get reasonably smooth frequency response on AND OFF axis. (this also means smooth polars). A little less smooth above 12k not such a big deal.
2. Directivity. Not that there's a BETTER, but get what you want. Don't settle for direct radiator if you want horn sound just so distortion specs look better on paper.
3. Resolution. CDs on horns seem to excel here. Can be somewhat predicted by CSD plots. Have to trust some others opinions unfortunately.
4. Coherence. This could be #3, or maybe even #2. It's really important. The ease of single driver speakers is real. I can't tell you how many very expensive 4 ways I've heard that are just not emotionally involving. Not exactly sure why, but fwiw, I'm convinced.
5. THD. I'm not sure at what level it's audible, but I like to see it reasonable because spikes can indicate problems with resonances and breakup which can be audible.
Because I have the best sound I've ever experienced with a two way, IM distortion doesn't make my list at all. I'm really worried that you will give up #1-4 because you are obsessing over distortion. The horns you heard that you liked, do you have any idea their distortion? When 1-4 are right, you don't care.
Last night I had a couple of buddies over. After a few rounds of craft cocktails we headed up to the listening room. I saw the clip lights on my amps flicker on a killer electronic track. That means about 800 watts into my 12" woofers. No signs of strain from my horns singing along happily with their 2 watts. It was LOUD, grins were a mile wide on my buddies. These CD's are spec'd to be running high power PA, but in a room in your house, they can cross much lower. If my 1" does fine, a 2" exit with the larger diaphragm is going to be perfectly fine covering 500+, and don't worry about the wiggles above 12k or some other specs that may not be audible. The two way recipe you have worked out is a blast to listen to, that's what matters.
Home studio is the listening environment. I'd like to reach club levels, if reasonably possible.
The AE15h combined with whatever compression driver I can find that stays super flat through its passband, is where I'm at. I'd like to cross at 500hz, and reach to 19khz. Emphasis on "linear as possible through the passband"....reaching club levels isn't a necessity, rather a want.
The AE15h combined with whatever compression driver I can find that stays super flat through its passband, is where I'm at. I'd like to cross at 500hz, and reach to 19khz. Emphasis on "linear as possible through the passband"....reaching club levels isn't a necessity, rather a want.
Last edited:
A 2" compression driver crossing at 500hz for club levels, are you crazy ?
The horn would be say 36" wide alone !!
Like the giant butt crack jbl theater horns!!!!
Jbl went away from setups like that to horn loaded mids because of distortion reasons.
Otherwise, 750hz (low to me or not crossed steep enough).
May be time for a 3 way.
The horn would be say 36" wide alone !!
Like the giant butt crack jbl theater horns!!!!
Jbl went away from setups like that to horn loaded mids because of distortion reasons.
Otherwise, 750hz (low to me or not crossed steep enough).
May be time for a 3 way.
Last edited:
ND2080A
+
Https://www.ebay.com/itm/11-x-17-AB...n-90-x-40-For-Many-2-Exit-Driver/331676072699
Can I do better?
ps -club level is 116db btw...and its not a necessity.
+
Https://www.ebay.com/itm/11-x-17-AB...n-90-x-40-For-Many-2-Exit-Driver/331676072699
Can I do better?
ps -club level is 116db btw...and its not a necessity.
I think we've been down this road, discussing this horn in particular or one that was slightly smaller.
GM said "
So i seems it will load just fine but not so much directional control. Maybe GM can provide some clarity.
I found it, "Goldwood GM-450PB" was the horn being discussed. The horn I've chosen above is also spec'd to run down to 500hz and is a better horn.
I think I have found a winning combo.....I could play with the Xover between 500hz and 800hz. If I don't like it in a two configuration, I can add a mid to lower the xover on the AE15h.....I don't see a CD with a smooth frequency response, if you have a suggestion, now would be the time. I'm getting anxious to make a purchase! I'm confused on how to power the CD since it only needs a few watts. The CTS 4200 4 channel amp is what I was considering, just in case I need 4 channels to run a mid and high. Complete over kill wattage wise.
DSP - Dbx driverack pa2 or dB-Mark XCA26. The Latter has higher resolution sampling. The former has more eq control, leaning towards the Db-mark.
GM said "
So i seems it will load just fine but not so much directional control. Maybe GM can provide some clarity.
I found it, "Goldwood GM-450PB" was the horn being discussed. The horn I've chosen above is also spec'd to run down to 500hz and is a better horn.
I think I have found a winning combo.....I could play with the Xover between 500hz and 800hz. If I don't like it in a two configuration, I can add a mid to lower the xover on the AE15h.....I don't see a CD with a smooth frequency response, if you have a suggestion, now would be the time. I'm getting anxious to make a purchase! I'm confused on how to power the CD since it only needs a few watts. The CTS 4200 4 channel amp is what I was considering, just in case I need 4 channels to run a mid and high. Complete over kill wattage wise.
DSP - Dbx driverack pa2 or dB-Mark XCA26. The Latter has higher resolution sampling. The former has more eq control, leaning towards the Db-mark.
Last edited:
Hmm, thought I pretty much said it all here, so please clarify your 'clarity'.
: Is it possible to cover the whole spectrum, high spl, low distortion with a 2-way?Compression drivers are inherently under damped since the horn is inherently over damped and when properly designed as a system tend to be nominally flat over its gain BW. The 'squiggles' in the response are normally due to various reflections, discontinuities in the design, but once done right, look at how smooth, etc., Dr. Geddes's WG systems are both on and off axis.
The horns you chose will need plenty of terminus/mouth damping due to its abrupt termination to minimize the worst of them.
I'm totally out of date re amp selection, but way back when, the problem was that SS amps driven at tiny fractions of its rated power tended to be non-linear with a layer of grunge [for lack of a better description], so what I did was preload the amp with a ~ matching resistance to both force the amp to become more of a current source and help pad the horn as a compromise to running a high output impedance tube amp.
With horns this can work with up to ~80-100 W, but the kind of power folks use today, best to bi-amp using an amp size suitable for the needs of the app, i.e. don't buy based on driver rating unless you're sure you need it and in either case double it with a soft limiter to ensure it likely won't hit any sort of hard limiter in the amp that might damage the driver [assuming this is still an issue].
This may be of some help: Gain Structure for Home Theater: Getting the Most from Pro Audio Equipment in Your System - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com
GM
As for amplification. I have tried : gainclone, creek 4330, class d amplifier boards that used to be available to stack on top of the minidsp board, other class d boards, and the zen triode from decware. The zen triode trounced everything i had heard before. But it's only 2.3 watts. At 110db/W/m that's enough for me, might not be for everyone.
So here is what I think has shown itself as a viable solution thanks to the help of a friend here on the board.
Jbl 2451 + 2384 waveguide + aquaplas titanium diaphram
I'm looking for the polars of the waveguide, haven't found any yet. Long term goal would be to end up with beryllium diaphragms but only if I was not satisfied.
Anyone think I am making the wrong move? The only other option I see is a Radian 951. I'm almost certain the Radian 951 is pretty much a remake of the large Jbls like the 2451, but I can find the 2451 for half the price and still save after buying new diaphragms. The 2384 is the best 1.5" horn I can find thus far.
Jbl 2451 + 2384 waveguide + aquaplas titanium diaphram
I'm looking for the polars of the waveguide, haven't found any yet. Long term goal would be to end up with beryllium diaphragms but only if I was not satisfied.
Anyone think I am making the wrong move? The only other option I see is a Radian 951. I'm almost certain the Radian 951 is pretty much a remake of the large Jbls like the 2451, but I can find the 2451 for half the price and still save after buying new diaphragms. The 2384 is the best 1.5" horn I can find thus far.
~SoS/perimeter of mouth flange [2*L+W]
~SoS/4/D
SoS = varies from ~1125 - 1130 ft/sec depending on who you ask; I use 1130 = 13560", Hornresp = 344 m/sec = ~1128.61 ft/sec = 13543.31"
Again, all just approximate since mouth end correction + any horn depth built into the compression driver + any baffle loading will lower these frequencies a bit.
GM
They are shown the traditional way as part of the speaker system: https://www.jblpro.com/ProductAttachments/SS4722_0509.pdf
Dunno, you were wanting a 500 Hz XO, but the horn doesn't appear to be rated for it if the 4722 is any indication.
What woofer did you choose?
GM