Go Back   Home > Forums > >
Home Forums Rules Articles diyAudio Store Blogs Gallery Wiki Register Donations FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Where did I go wrong with my design? (2-way horn speaker)
Where did I go wrong with my design? (2-way horn speaker)
Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 22nd February 2019, 09:54 PM   #11
Cask05 is offline Cask05  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Cask05's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Arlington, TX
The Anna Karenina principle applies:
All happy loudspeakers are alike; each unhappy loudspeaker is unhappy in its own way.
In other words: in order to be happy, a loudspeaker must be successful with respect to every one of a range of criteria, including frequency response overlaps of drivers, polar coverage at the crossover regions, reserve SPL of the drivers (sensitivity matching), low distortion, bass coupling to room boundaries, the absence of box and driver resonances, etc. Failure on only one of these counts leads to unhappiness. Thus, there are more ways for a loudspeaker to be unhappy than happy.


Chris
  Reply With Quote
Old 23rd February 2019, 08:26 AM   #12
frangus is offline frangus  Australia
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Sydney
I could never get my DE250 to sound natural and SEOS doesn’t sound correct either despite what measurements show

Radian 745 in azura horn much better for me
  Reply With Quote
Old 23rd February 2019, 08:48 AM   #13
TBTL is offline TBTL  Germany
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Did you use (reflection free) time gated measurements for > 500 Hz? And then ungated measurements at the listening position for < 200 Hz?

Another possibility is that you just do not like narrow dispersion. I have had the same experience with a similar DIY speaker.

Last edited by TBTL; 23rd February 2019 at 08:52 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 23rd February 2019, 02:34 PM   #14
Defo is offline Defo  Norway
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by norman bates View Post
And all the boxy midrange flying out the port isn't helpfull either.
The cabinet was sealed using Linkwitz Transform to up the low end

Quote:
Originally Posted by norman bates View Post
Perhaps you needed 24db slopes,
I tried everything from 6 db to 48 db slopes to no avail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by norman bates View Post
...then slide tweet forward till time aligned.
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Busch View Post
Phase issues due to different vertical and horizontal acoustic centers.
Might be something there. Didn't think those couple of inches would make a whole lot of difference

Quote:
Originally Posted by norman bates View Post
This can be a frustrating hobby initially.
And even pricy.
Tell me about it

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Busch View Post
At the crossover point, your two drivers sound VERY different.... a large heavy direct radiator vs. a small very light weight, horn loaded diaphragm.
I would've thought a 99db woofer would be dynamic enough to follow the horn.
But I see your point. How does other horn designs solve this? (if they actually do solve it)

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Busch View Post
And due to very different natural roll off profiles for each driver, a VERY asymmetrical spread frequency crossover topology is required.
I think I tried asymmetrical slopes, but cannot remember for sure.
So might be something there. Would've thought 48db slopes would solve this anyways tho

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godzilla View Post
I tried to do a 10" two way using a compression driver and waveguide and had a difficult time too. The problem with my project was that I was using a cabinet that was too small.
Was it just the bass response you were unhappy with?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godzilla View Post
I've never been a fan of the SEOs waveguide. Here I described the sound using the very same B&C DE250.
Quote:
Originally Posted by frangus View Post
I could never get my DE250 to sound natural and SEOS doesn’t sound correct either despite what measurements show
Interesting! They seem to be so praised in the community in general (in my impression at least)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TBTL View Post
Did you use (reflection free) time gated measurements for > 500 Hz? And then ungated measurements at the listening position for < 200 Hz?
Yep. Although it might've been better to just do some measurements in an open field anyways? Although time gating should in theory remove the room out of the equation right? (for the midrange/high end at least)
  Reply With Quote
Old 23rd February 2019, 03:41 PM   #15
cspieker is offline cspieker  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: South Dakota
I spent years of trial and error using different woofers to try to match up with my horns. Even with eq they all sound different. Finally I found one that just sounded right. It is my opinion that the factors that affect the Sonic character of a driver are not nearly as well understood as we like to pretend. The hard part is that it doesn't seem that one driver is always better than another but rather that the drivers in a system have to be all cut from similar cloth sonically. A woofer that sounds good with a silk dome tweeter may not mesh well with a ribbon or a horn.
  Reply With Quote
Old 23rd February 2019, 04:48 PM   #16
freddi is offline freddi  United States
diyAudio Member
 
freddi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Where did I go wrong with my design? (2-way horn speaker)
(- can understand why the lowly single driver hasn't yet faded into the sunset ) DE250 can sound pretty good as used by Danley with MEH. I've run DE250 on K-tubes where there's no contouring needed due to little if any gain on the bottom and collapsing dispersion at the top. (is there such a thing as "plastic sound character" from plastic diaphragm compression drivers?)

dunno how well the transform would work subjectively with that 10. It had the ideal q for a 6th order reflex but tuning at ~60 could sound hooty. Sealed and eq-ed to 40Hz - then highpassed ??

@John Busch - would you have any general advice for making coaxial woofer/compression driver combos work well ? - that might make a good thread.

with feeble attempts and outcomes (not so much the K stuff) plus hearing mediocre commercial offerings, I sure appreciate what Henry Kloss did (in the original KLH days) with regards to making good cost effective drivers and blending them.
  Reply With Quote
Old 23rd February 2019, 07:46 PM   #17
rb132333 is offline rb132333  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: now in sunny AZ
In my opinion, there is no driver that can play bass and quality midrange at the same time. I abandoned my attempt at an Econowave a long time ago. Can you cover 5 octaves with a 12"?? In my experience, no. I have come to appreciate that the music lives in the midrange and covering 2-1/2 to 3 octaves (400 to 2400) yields the best results. Finding the 'elusive, ultimate' mid-range is my goal. One of my concerns with DIY is always chasing the next 'new' thing. I always go back to Lenard Audio articles on drivers and what they cover effectively. But it is fun and interesting to see new ideas.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Driver Size Polar Response.jpg (157.8 KB, 318 views)
  Reply With Quote
Old 24th February 2019, 04:20 PM   #18
eriksquires is offline eriksquires  United States
diyAudio Member
 
eriksquires's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Common mistake is designing for flat at the listening location.



Next time you do a 2-way, do gated 1m measurements in situ, and start with the B&K curve as your reference. This avoids the issue of doing a quasi-anechoic, and not merging the baffle-step correctly. Even if you do use quasi, anechoic, do this as a check.



Also, use decent caps like Audyn, or Mundorf or Clarity. Even their bass line caps are decent compared to Solen/Axon/SCR.
__________________
All of my successes and failures can be explained by my attempts at getting a girlfriend. All of them.
  Reply With Quote
Old 24th February 2019, 06:03 PM   #19
silverprout is offline silverprout  France
diyAudio Member
 
silverprout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defo View Post
Interesting! They seem to be so praised in the community in general (in my impression at least)
Mc Donald is very praised in the human community, i'm not sure if it is the best incarnation of the gastronomy, perhaps.
The DE250 is a good loudspeaker driver, even some of the most regarded cooking chiefs of my country have admitted that they enjoy the big mac time to time.
I you are looking for something really refined, you have to search a little more IMHO.
__________________
Things I Should Have Learned In School (But Probably Didn't)
  Reply With Quote
Old 24th February 2019, 07:52 PM   #20
Speedysteve7 is offline Speedysteve7  United Kingdom
diyAudio Member
 
Speedysteve7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Hants/Berkshire/Surrey
Not enough ways, need 4 or 5 channel for horns to sing.

Single passive mixed with horn is never satisfying for me.

Front loaded horns if chosen well are not hard to X/O integrate.

All imho of course.
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Where did I go wrong with my design? (2-way horn speaker)Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
2x12" horn speaker design plasnu Multi-Way 28 11th March 2016 04:01 PM
Looking for the right horn speaker design... Aservante Full Range 3 16th December 2014 03:03 PM
what's best enclosure design for Coral Beta 8 Speaker ? which horn ? Schematic ? calico88 Full Range 34 13th January 2013 07:46 PM
a new horn speaker design in 3D angeloitacare Multi-Way 3 7th January 2009 10:59 PM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 10:23 AM.


Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Resources saved on this page: MySQL 14.29%
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ©1999-2019 diyAudio
Wiki