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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Simple high efficiency two-way
Simple high efficiency two-way
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Old 19th February 2019, 11:47 AM   #1
Defo is offline Defo  Norway
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Default Simple high efficiency two-way

Hi!

Been looking a bit into building a high efficiency two-way with a 1st order filter. In other words, as simple as possible.
Are there any good HE drivers out there that works well with a 1st order filter?
I see Zu Audio are doing it with a 10" wideband/full-range.

Maybe a Dayton PM220 wideband woofer with a Dayton AMTPRO-4 or something?

Any suggestions?

Last edited by Defo; 19th February 2019 at 12:22 PM.
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Old 19th February 2019, 12:40 PM   #2
CharlieLaub is offline CharlieLaub  United States
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That is a really tall order, especially if you want it to sound good. Your proposed drivers will definitely not result in good sound. For one thing, the AMTPRO has a rapidly falling response above 10k, so unless you are partially deaf you will notice that.

A first order filter rolls off very slowly. You will not be able to use a "tweeter" and likely not a CD+horn either, because you won't be able to attenuate the signal enough before resonance. It might be possible to use a very large horn with a 2" CD that can go down to 500Hz or so, and then cross it over to a high output 10" around 1.5kHz, but I suspect this is not what you are after.

So you are left using two high efficiency wideband drivers. I would choose a 6" to 10" high SPL fullranger with whizzer cone and a 12" pro audio woofer, and cross around 800Hz.

Keep in mind making the crossover more and more "simple" at some point has some diminishing returns. How will you account for baffle step, or other FR irregularities? Why not just build a good high SPL fullranger and have a sub kick in at 150Hz, or whereever the fullranger low end starts to roll off. You get a crossover for free in that case...
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Old 19th February 2019, 01:24 PM   #3
Defo is offline Defo  Norway
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieLaub View Post
AMTPRO has a rapidly falling response above 10k
Can't hear anything above 13k so not an issue of me.

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Originally Posted by CharlieLaub View Post
It might be possible to use a very large horn with a 2" CD that can go down to 500Hz or so, and then cross it over to a high output 10" around 1.5kHz, but I suspect this is not what you are after.
Zu Audio crosses a 2" inch Radian 950 electrically at 7 khz or something. What the actual acoustic XO point ends up being is another story. But that's what I'm interested in exploring.

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Originally Posted by CharlieLaub View Post
How will you account for baffle step, or other FR irregularities?
Yeah, baffle step would need to be handled somehow. Some FR irregularities are just fine. Excessive FR irregularities equals bad driver choice in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by CharlieLaub View Post
Keep in mind making the crossover more and more "simple" at some point has some diminishing returns. Why not just build a good high SPL fullranger and have a sub kick in at 150Hz, or whereever the fullranger low end starts to roll off. You get a crossover for free in that case...
Ignoring the issue of baffle-step for a minute. Why not go for a widebander and a 1st order tweeter with a high XO instead of a fullranger?

Last edited by Defo; 19th February 2019 at 01:51 PM.
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Old 19th February 2019, 03:13 PM   #4
John Busch is offline John Busch  United States
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Default 1st order 2 way

This is such an alluring concept at first, but VERY difficult to pull off correctly. There have been many articles and attempts since the beginning of the dynamic speaker.

Three (minimum) conditions must be met. The woofer and tweeter must have a minimum 2 octaves of flat overlap at the intended crossover frequency in the frequency domain. Three is better. Both drivers must exhibit very smooth natural roll off characteristics at both ends of their operating range in the frequency domain and both need to be aligned in the vertical plane in terms of the operating acoustic center(s).

Both will very likely require Zobel parallel circuits and or resonance damping circuits to be able to yield flat impedance and frequency response. And that is just the beginning!

Not saying it can't be done... but once you meet the above criteria you may be surprised at how small you woofer and how large your tweeter (HF) driver need to be. Also, as soon as you add any series crossover components you will likely end up with 2nd order (or even higher) acoustic slopes where you do not necessarily want them frequency wise.
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Old 19th February 2019, 03:30 PM   #5
burgunder is offline burgunder  Denmark
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Here's some inspiration 8008-CORNER and Vifa C20WH
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Old 19th February 2019, 03:34 PM   #6
adason is offline adason  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Defo View Post
I see Zu Audio are doing it with a 10" wideband/full-range.
I heard Zu many times at audio shows and never liked the sound. They measure poorly and sound equally bad. Not enough bottom end, lumpy shouty upper end.
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Old 19th February 2019, 03:48 PM   #7
phivates is offline phivates  United States
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How about scaling up xrk971's 10F/RSS225 to PRV 5MR and two RSS 225?
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Old 19th February 2019, 05:12 PM   #8
celef is offline celef
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adason View Post
I heard Zu many times at audio shows and never liked the sound. They measure poorly and sound equally bad. Not enough bottom end, lumpy shouty upper end.
but they look cool.

as does oma, i wonder if oma measures as bad as they seem to measure?
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Old 19th February 2019, 05:20 PM   #9
fatmarley is offline fatmarley  England
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Never heard them but how about these - Seas A26 Kit
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Old 19th February 2019, 05:39 PM   #10
Defo is offline Defo  Norway
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Busch View Post
This is such an alluring concept at first, but VERY difficult to pull off correctly. There have been many articles and attempts since the beginning of the dynamic speaker.

Three (minimum) conditions must be met. The woofer and tweeter must have a minimum 2 octaves of flat overlap at the intended crossover frequency in the frequency domain. Three is better. Both drivers must exhibit very smooth natural roll off characteristics at both ends of their operating range in the frequency domain and both need to be aligned in the vertical plane in terms of the operating acoustic center(s).

Both will very likely require Zobel parallel circuits and or resonance damping circuits to be able to yield flat impedance and frequency response. And that is just the beginning!

Not saying it can't be done... but once you meet the above criteria you may be surprised at how small you woofer and how large your tweeter (HF) driver need to be. Also, as soon as you add any series crossover components you will likely end up with 2nd order (or even higher) acoustic slopes where you do not necessarily want them frequency wise.
Thanks for valuable feedback! It seems my impression that a 1st order speaker was a whole lot easier than higher order ones was quite wrong...
Thing is, I've tried a lot of two-way speaker combinations using an active filter, and never got them to sound "right". Thought a 1st order passive with the right drivers would be hard to f**k up

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Originally Posted by burgunder View Post
Here's some inspiration 8008-CORNER and Vifa C20WH
That Vifa C20WH one looks amazing! Shame you cannot get that driver anywhere.. I wonder if there is any good alternative driver?

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Originally Posted by phivates View Post
How about scaling up xrk971's 10F/RSS225 to PRV 5MR and two RSS 225?
Not what I would call high efficiency Although the 10F is an amazing driver! Maybe just do an array of those...

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Originally Posted by fatmarley View Post
Never heard them but how about these - Seas A26 Kit
I've actually used that woofer before. Excellent driver! But not high efficiency (per my definition).
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