Dear Diyaudio community,
I'm currently working on a project for a 3-way monitoring system for mixing and mastering and I'm looking for some advice.
I mix and master mainly acoustic and classical music. I currently work with lipinski 707 + diy subs that I will keep, but have to go surround and 3 more lipinski are out of my budget.
The speakers will be amplified with hypex fusion amp, so crossover will be very flexible, and I have the possibility to do measures in a well sounding room.
I've build successfully two different designs from Troels Gravesen that turned out well, so I've some little experience.
My budget is 700€/speaker maximum. I would like to have sealed speakers, I'm used to this kind of sound.
The driver that I've selected are:
tweeter: Scan-speak R2604/832000 with modded WG-300 waveguides (adaptors and cut to have them 1cm closer to the mid unit)
low-mid: Scan-speak 15W/4424G00
woofer: Dayton audio RSS210HF-4
I'll start experimenting on crossover at 250Hz and 2.2kHz
The internal dimensions of the enclosure will be 50x20x23cm
There will be a separation that gives around 15 litres for the woofer and 3 litres for the mid.
Drivers, heavy bracing and plate amps take the rest to reach the 23 litres total.
I’m thinking at a WTM configuration, primarily for the reason that’s is simpler to separate de enclosure for the midwoofer and maybe for less diffraction.
What are your opinion on this choice?
Would it be a good idea to do an asymmetrical or particular shape of internal mid compartment to minimise resonances and back reflections?
Do you see any problems on this design?
Images are front panel design, and W and M drivers with the volumes i'd like to use.
Thank you very much, kind regards
Enrico
I'm currently working on a project for a 3-way monitoring system for mixing and mastering and I'm looking for some advice.
I mix and master mainly acoustic and classical music. I currently work with lipinski 707 + diy subs that I will keep, but have to go surround and 3 more lipinski are out of my budget.
The speakers will be amplified with hypex fusion amp, so crossover will be very flexible, and I have the possibility to do measures in a well sounding room.
I've build successfully two different designs from Troels Gravesen that turned out well, so I've some little experience.
My budget is 700€/speaker maximum. I would like to have sealed speakers, I'm used to this kind of sound.
The driver that I've selected are:
tweeter: Scan-speak R2604/832000 with modded WG-300 waveguides (adaptors and cut to have them 1cm closer to the mid unit)
low-mid: Scan-speak 15W/4424G00
woofer: Dayton audio RSS210HF-4
I'll start experimenting on crossover at 250Hz and 2.2kHz
The internal dimensions of the enclosure will be 50x20x23cm
There will be a separation that gives around 15 litres for the woofer and 3 litres for the mid.
Drivers, heavy bracing and plate amps take the rest to reach the 23 litres total.
I’m thinking at a WTM configuration, primarily for the reason that’s is simpler to separate de enclosure for the midwoofer and maybe for less diffraction.
What are your opinion on this choice?
Would it be a good idea to do an asymmetrical or particular shape of internal mid compartment to minimise resonances and back reflections?
Do you see any problems on this design?
Images are front panel design, and W and M drivers with the volumes i'd like to use.
Thank you very much, kind regards
Enrico
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Hi Enrico,
my advice is: choose another woofer. I tried to use the Dayton RSS in a similar configuration and failed. Its output is too low (around 82 dB) and everything at this woofer is optimized for the use as a subwoofer. Just grab the woofer and hit with a knuckle against the diaphragm. You will hear the ringing of the resonant-peak.
I know, bad news. But that's the way it is.
my advice is: choose another woofer. I tried to use the Dayton RSS in a similar configuration and failed. Its output is too low (around 82 dB) and everything at this woofer is optimized for the use as a subwoofer. Just grab the woofer and hit with a knuckle against the diaphragm. You will hear the ringing of the resonant-peak.
I know, bad news. But that's the way it is.
Hey Spendormania,
that's a really bad news... they're cheap and go very low for 8".
I read in the forum that Guzauski Swist uses RSS315 in their GS-3...
Ok that is 12", and sure it play louder, but I think they cross around 380hz to the atc dome.
Do you think it's a bad idea even if I cross lower, let's say 150Hz and use 18W/4424 for mid-lows?
If not what would you suggest to use in that price range?
Thanks a lot!
that's a really bad news... they're cheap and go very low for 8".
I read in the forum that Guzauski Swist uses RSS315 in their GS-3...
Ok that is 12", and sure it play louder, but I think they cross around 380hz to the atc dome.
Do you think it's a bad idea even if I cross lower, let's say 150Hz and use 18W/4424 for mid-lows?
If not what would you suggest to use in that price range?
Thanks a lot!
One possible problem for near field monitor is, would it be more sensitive to vertical ear location than conventional design. Should be fine for midfield, though...
I Like It
I would say lighn the boxes well and potentially raise the pitch of the crossovers.
at a guess 450 and 3.3
just a bit higher for both I sense. best ask the professionals...
prehaps 333 and 3.3
The upper xover frequency of 2.2kHz is chosen specifically for directivity reasons and should not be raised higher! Likewise the lower xover frequency of 250Hz also works better than something higher. It keeps the sub drivers upper frequencies out of the mix and, due to the WTM spacing, improves crossover integration between the W and the M.
What's wrong with the resonant peak? Of course it has a resonant peak it's a metal coned driver, what's new?
The issue is where is the resonant peak?
With this driver it's at 4.3kHz. The associated harmonic distortion peaks occur at the highest of 900Hz with the 5th harmonic. Clearly this is going to be well attenuated by any proposed crossover. The target of 250Hz was a good one and would work well.
Yeah the driver is insensitive, but it goes deep in small boxes and has plenty of excursion to back this up. All you need is power. If you've got power then no problem!
Direct from Zaph's website, the sub driver is impressively clean up to 900Hz.
Personally, and depending on where you are in the world, I would strongly consider the ZA14 as your mid driver. Or the SB15(B)NAC. Then you've also got the SB17(B)NAC. This would also work very well with your proposed 2.2kHz xover, giving a great directivity match to the WG300 and giving you more freedom for the lower xover point to the sub driver. It is of course slightly bigger so you'd have higher C2C spacing, the only downside.
I've used the WG300 + XT25 in combination with a SEAS W15CY001 and it sounded absolutely wonderful. The metal cone drivers I've mentioned above are definitely a step up from the scanspeak mid driver, which isn't anything special. A lot of the discovery drivers do not use any copper or aluminium shorting rings in their motor, which is a shame. Definitely pick a driver that does! Heck, Zaph even measured a Disco with shorting ring and that wasn't particularly impressive either.
You can see measurements for a lot of these drivers here...
SB Acoustics SB15NBAC30-4 | HiFiCompass
with the SB15 alu cone in the link provided.
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Hello 5th element, thanks for your reply.
HiFi Compass is really a great resource!
For the RSS210 the amount of power is no problem, but what scares me is the low xmax (9mm). Quite odd for a sub driver with such suspension. Should I read +/-9mm?
I was considering also visaton TIX200XS and SB23MFCL45... so many possibilities...
I'll check those mids and come back.
Kind regards
HiFi Compass is really a great resource!
For the RSS210 the amount of power is no problem, but what scares me is the low xmax (9mm). Quite odd for a sub driver with such suspension. Should I read +/-9mm?
I was considering also visaton TIX200XS and SB23MFCL45... so many possibilities...
I'll check those mids and come back.
Kind regards
Yes, I considered that monster.
FR looks similar to the RSS, it sure can play louder but it need a LOT of power due to its lower sensitivity. I also think it will be slower cause the diaphragm is quite heavier. I think I'll go with RSS.
For the mid you made me reconsider the SS.
ZA14 is surely a great driver, and for 5 pieces the price it's ok even with p&p and taxes from the Usa.
My only concern is, if one day I need to change one driver, that the price will be too high and since it's a less commercial product I'm not sure it'll be still produced.
The SB mid you suggest look very promising, have you used it in some design? Resonances are high freq but quite big.
Seas MCA15RCY looks nice too, but price it's a bit high.
Thanks
FR looks similar to the RSS, it sure can play louder but it need a LOT of power due to its lower sensitivity. I also think it will be slower cause the diaphragm is quite heavier. I think I'll go with RSS.
For the mid you made me reconsider the SS.
ZA14 is surely a great driver, and for 5 pieces the price it's ok even with p&p and taxes from the Usa.
My only concern is, if one day I need to change one driver, that the price will be too high and since it's a less commercial product I'm not sure it'll be still produced.
The SB mid you suggest look very promising, have you used it in some design? Resonances are high freq but quite big.
Seas MCA15RCY looks nice too, but price it's a bit high.
Thanks
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What's wrong with the resonant peak? Of course it has a resonant peak it's a metal coned driver, what's new?
The issue is where is the resonant peak?
With this driver it's at 4.3kHz. The associated harmonic distortion peaks occur at the highest of 900Hz with the 5th harmonic. Clearly this is going to be well attenuated by any proposed crossover. The target of 250Hz was a good one and would work well.
Yeah the driver is insensitive, but it goes deep in small boxes and has plenty of excursion to back this up. All you need is power. If you've got power then no problem!
Direct from Zaph's website, the sub driver is impressively clean up to 900Hz.
Main issue is the sound. I tried the Dayton in combination with a Seas Coax and it had big problems with male voices. I even purchased a second pair woofers for comparison.
In the German magazine HobbyHifi, the Dayton RSS 210 HF was impressively clean as well. Obviously its impossible to measure everything that counts.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
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