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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

3-way studio monitor design
3-way studio monitor design
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Old 14th February 2019, 10:43 PM   #11
WaVeInFoRm is offline WaVeInFoRm
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Seas H1471-08 CA22RNY 8 inch woofer | Loudspeaker freaks
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Old 14th February 2019, 11:03 PM   #12
plasnu is offline plasnu  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enricofiocco View Post
Never seen WTM in studio monitors, but I can't see any problem for it....
Regards
One possible problem for near field monitor is, would it be more sensitive to vertical ear location than conventional design. Should be fine for midfield, though...
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Old 14th February 2019, 11:05 PM   #13
enricofiocco is offline enricofiocco  France
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i see your point, it will be midfield by the way.
@waveinform: not bad at all those seas, i'll do some simulations!
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Old 14th February 2019, 11:08 PM   #14
enricofiocco is offline enricofiocco  France
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@waveinform: RNY for ported would be great, but i'd like to go sealed. RNX not bad

Last edited by enricofiocco; 14th February 2019 at 11:11 PM.
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Old 14th February 2019, 11:29 PM   #15
5th element is offline 5th element  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WaVeInFoRm View Post
I Like It

I would say lighn the boxes well and potentially raise the pitch of the crossovers.

at a guess 450 and 3.3

just a bit higher for both I sense. best ask the professionals...

prehaps 333 and 3.3
The upper xover frequency of 2.2kHz is chosen specifically for directivity reasons and should not be raised higher! Likewise the lower xover frequency of 250Hz also works better than something higher. It keeps the sub drivers upper frequencies out of the mix and, due to the WTM spacing, improves crossover integration between the W and the M.

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Originally Posted by spendormania View Post
Hi Enrico,

my advice is: choose another woofer. I tried to use the Dayton RSS in a similar configuration and failed. Its output is too low (around 82 dB) and everything at this woofer is optimized for the use as a subwoofer. Just grab the woofer and hit with a knuckle against the diaphragm. You will hear the ringing of the resonant-peak.

I know, bad news. But that's the way it is.
What's wrong with the resonant peak? Of course it has a resonant peak it's a metal coned driver, what's new?

The issue is where is the resonant peak?

With this driver it's at 4.3kHz. The associated harmonic distortion peaks occur at the highest of 900Hz with the 5th harmonic. Clearly this is going to be well attenuated by any proposed crossover. The target of 250Hz was a good one and would work well.

Yeah the driver is insensitive, but it goes deep in small boxes and has plenty of excursion to back this up. All you need is power. If you've got power then no problem!

Click the image to open in full size.

Direct from Zaph's website, the sub driver is impressively clean up to 900Hz.

Personally, and depending on where you are in the world, I would strongly consider the ZA14 as your mid driver. Or the SB15(B)NAC. Then you've also got the SB17(B)NAC. This would also work very well with your proposed 2.2kHz xover, giving a great directivity match to the WG300 and giving you more freedom for the lower xover point to the sub driver. It is of course slightly bigger so you'd have higher C2C spacing, the only downside.

I've used the WG300 + XT25 in combination with a SEAS W15CY001 and it sounded absolutely wonderful. The metal cone drivers I've mentioned above are definitely a step up from the scanspeak mid driver, which isn't anything special. A lot of the discovery drivers do not use any copper or aluminium shorting rings in their motor, which is a shame. Definitely pick a driver that does! Heck, Zaph even measured a Disco with shorting ring and that wasn't particularly impressive either.

You can see measurements for a lot of these drivers here...

SB Acoustics SB15NBAC30-4 | HiFiCompass

with the SB15 alu cone in the link provided.
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Last edited by 5th element; 14th February 2019 at 11:31 PM.
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Old 14th February 2019, 11:52 PM   #16
enricofiocco is offline enricofiocco  France
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Hello 5th element, thanks for your reply.

HiFi Compass is really a great resource!


For the RSS210 the amount of power is no problem, but what scares me is the low xmax (9mm). Quite odd for a sub driver with such suspension. Should I read +/-9mm?


I was considering also visaton TIX200XS and SB23MFCL45... so many possibilities...

I'll check those mids and come back.

Kind regards
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Old 15th February 2019, 05:46 AM   #17
5th element is offline 5th element  United Kingdom
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Yeah it's absolutely +-9mm for the Dayton sub.

I suppose another option could be the UM8-22. I don't know how this sims but it's a beast of a driver and has copper in all the right places.
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Old 15th February 2019, 11:09 AM   #18
enricofiocco is offline enricofiocco  France
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Yes, I considered that monster.

FR looks similar to the RSS, it sure can play louder but it need a LOT of power due to its lower sensitivity. I also think it will be slower cause the diaphragm is quite heavier. I think I'll go with RSS.


For the mid you made me reconsider the SS.

ZA14 is surely a great driver, and for 5 pieces the price it's ok even with p&p and taxes from the Usa.

My only concern is, if one day I need to change one driver, that the price will be too high and since it's a less commercial product I'm not sure it'll be still produced.


The SB mid you suggest look very promising, have you used it in some design? Resonances are high freq but quite big.
Seas MCA15RCY looks nice too, but price it's a bit high.


Thanks

Last edited by enricofiocco; 15th February 2019 at 11:29 AM.
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Old 15th February 2019, 11:53 AM   #19
enricofiocco is offline enricofiocco  France
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edit: Seas MCA15RCY can be found for 66€ here in France, so it's a possibility.
But both MCA15 and SB15 are less flat than SS W15 in the freq range I'd like to use.

Last edited by enricofiocco; 15th February 2019 at 12:16 PM.
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Old 15th February 2019, 01:05 PM   #20
spendormania is offline spendormania  Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5th element View Post
What's wrong with the resonant peak? Of course it has a resonant peak it's a metal coned driver, what's new?

The issue is where is the resonant peak?

With this driver it's at 4.3kHz. The associated harmonic distortion peaks occur at the highest of 900Hz with the 5th harmonic. Clearly this is going to be well attenuated by any proposed crossover. The target of 250Hz was a good one and would work well.

Yeah the driver is insensitive, but it goes deep in small boxes and has plenty of excursion to back this up. All you need is power. If you've got power then no problem!

Click the image to open in full size.

Direct from Zaph's website, the sub driver is impressively clean up to 900Hz.
Main issue is the sound. I tried the Dayton in combination with a Seas Coax and it had big problems with male voices. I even purchased a second pair woofers for comparison.

In the German magazine HobbyHifi, the Dayton RSS 210 HF was impressively clean as well. Obviously its impossible to measure everything that counts.

Click the image to open in full size.
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