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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

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Old 12th January 2019, 03:53 PM   #21
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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Sorry, don't have off axis - might have reverse (not my speakers). In room tonal balance was excellent, so off axis probably was too. Will dig them up and post later today.

By targets I mean the goals expressed by the designer, low end extension top end response and slight mid dip. So yes there can be targets if done by ear. It's well beyond my capabilities, but I've known at least three men how could do it. Many, many years of experience to achieve those skills.
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Old 12th January 2019, 04:21 PM   #22
tsmith1315 is offline tsmith1315  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marco_gea View Post
Quote: "The question is whether we can make a crossover at all without measurements - and the answer is NO.
It cannot be done, and crossovers cannot be calculated."
Jeez... relax. YES, of course it CAN be done, and the speakers WILL work. Add a moderate amount of information from spec sheets and that may be enough to make a builder very happy with his creation.

And what could be more important than that?

Please don't scare beginners away, many have to start with virtually nothing. That doesn't mean they should just give up because they don't have access to test equipment.

To be quite honest, I still don't use software. I have programs I've downloaded, but I don't even remember which they are and where they're located. Every now and then I'll make a spreadsheet (when I can't find my last one) to do repeated calculations, and that's enough for me. One day, I may go more in-depth, but I don't have to satisfy anyone but myself.


Quote:
Originally Posted by fatmarley View Post
It's only when you have accurate measurements imported into crossover design software that you can see with your own eyes how bad simple crossovers will sound and how they react to tweaking by ear (rarely as you'd expect).
Be aware, you're suggesting that nothing before the advent of simulation software was properly designed. There are a few pioneers who would disagree.
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Old 12th January 2019, 04:31 PM   #23
Vintage Audio Projec is offline Vintage Audio Projec
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The reason I reply to this is indeed that making such statements scaries beginners a lot and it is sad that interested people don't dig further because they think (reading on forums etc...) that they have to take measurements and have to use equipment that will cost some money just to build a simple 2 or 3 way traditional bookshelf speaker with passive crossover.

In the end they just give up what otherwise could be a nice and learning hobby.

I like the tutorial because it gives those people an easy approach to get decent results instead of putting them of saying it can't be done

I think instead of saying "don't work" it is better to say "not the most optimum"
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Old 12th January 2019, 04:32 PM   #24
fatmarley is offline fatmarley  England
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmith1315 View Post
Be aware, you're suggesting that nothing before the advent of simulation software was properly designed. There are a few pioneers who would disagree.
What did people do before calculators or computers? That's right - It was worked out on paper.
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Old 12th January 2019, 04:55 PM   #25
Galu is offline Galu  Scotland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatmarley View Post
It was worked out on paper.
In my case, with the help of a slide rule!
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Old 12th January 2019, 05:01 PM   #26
tsmith1315 is offline tsmith1315  United States
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Right- on paper, not "imported into crossover design software".

Sorry to be so annoyed. In the 80's & 90's, I was a big proponent of computer use as a tool. I guess I still am as long as they are used as a "tool" and not as a substitute for your own brain. A fancy pencil and paper (or slide rule) they are.

The bottom line is a couple of simple formulas are enough for a beginner to make their first crossover, and it will work. If they understand those formulas, they can indeed tweak by ear and make some sort of predictable changes.

Vintage Audio, I agree entirely. That tutorial looks great, and is where newbies should be directed when they want to begin increasing their abilities.
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Old 12th January 2019, 05:12 PM   #27
scottjoplin is offline scottjoplin  Wales
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It's quite straight forward if you chose drivers which aren't already rolling off at the crossover point. The quote from the Troels Gravesen site is obviously extreme, I'm disappointed to be honest
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Old 12th January 2019, 05:25 PM   #28
Lojzek is online now Lojzek  Croatia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatmarley View Post
It seems like almost every day we have a new person asking about online crossover calculators or ready made crossovers.
...Anyone up for it?

My advice would be not to explain why something won't work, rather offer a way of achieving a goal in the manner that you find reasonable.

You could call it perhaps "A recipe on how to design a universally good sounding loudspeaker".
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Old 12th January 2019, 05:25 PM   #29
Galu is offline Galu  Scotland
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Crossovers tuned by ear do work for me since it's my ears that are doing the tuning!

New posters on this sub forum are often encouraged to plug numbers into computer simulations whilst being left ignorant of what the terms and numbers mean.

The basic physics should come first (see the tutorial). Once crossovers are understood the computer may be introduced as a convenient tool for executing calculations.
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Old 12th January 2019, 05:25 PM   #30
fatmarley is offline fatmarley  England
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmith1315 View Post
Right- on paper, not "imported into crossover design software".

Sorry to be so annoyed. In the 80's & 90's, I was a big proponent of computer use as a tool. I guess I still am as long as they are used as a "tool" and not as a substitute for your own brain. A fancy pencil and paper (or slide rule) they are.

The bottom line is a couple of simple formulas are enough for a beginner to make their first crossover, and it will work. If they understand those formulas, they can indeed tweak by ear and make some sort of predictable changes.

Vintage Audio, I agree entirely. That tutorial looks great, and is where newbies should be directed when they want to begin increasing their abilities.
To replicate what I can do on my pc, on paper is obviously possible but it would be incredibly complicated and you would still need to take frequency response and impedance measurements. I very much doubt a newbie is going to do that when they could do it on a cheap laptop.

A couple of simple formulas is not enough to design a crossover and no the changes wont be predictable the large majority of the time.
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