I love the apparent simplicity of single driver loudspeakers but all have sonic flaws, a small driver has no low end, a large driver has poor hiend, and drivers in between... got nothing. I know deep inside that 3 ways are the ideal loudspeaker, the midrange driver does not have to deal with bass frequencies nor high frequencies and that is a huge benefit. However, i do think my 3 ways can be overly unfriendly and complex, when going active i have cables and amps all over the place, and turning to passives it gets even worse with more cables and crossover parts all over my listening room floor, there is almost no free space to walk on, i have to climb on the furnitures. Therefor i think 2 ways are the very best compromise, that will for sure free up some space in my room. I want a speaker with a good midrange, bass that peaks a little at 40-50hz and a tweeter that is kind on the ear, which drivers would you choose?
You've posed a very difficult question. At least you have (sort of) defined your goals.
However:
But if you wanted something smaller, more modern and also well loved, look up the Econowave project. It has a huge following and tons of builds on this forum and others.
If open baffle strikes your fancy, you could see my long running thread on the Manzanita project. Plenty of options there, too.
However:
- Budget?
- Box size?
- Room size?
- WAF?
- Your taste in music?
- Your skill level?
But if you wanted something smaller, more modern and also well loved, look up the Econowave project. It has a huge following and tons of builds on this forum and others.
If open baffle strikes your fancy, you could see my long running thread on the Manzanita project. Plenty of options there, too.
IMO most reasonably priced cones larger than approx. 6-7 inch are too compromised in both dispersion and cone behavior at the point where most reasonably priced tweeters need to cross over, about 2-3 Khz.
Sooo If your not going to spend a lot and you want a 2 way with at least a reasonable dynamic range and bass extension, then the "2 1/2 way" is your friend.
Simpler two way design with an added woofer often with nothing more than one inductor going to it. This extra woofer takes care of the lean bass below the baffle step of a typical small cone 2 way and increases sensitivity 3-4 db.
If ya want to spend more there are many other ways that Im sure others will mention but the above is imo the easy and cheapest way to get it done.
I recommend this tweeter for smooth response and very easy simple to use. Quite good bang for buck and can cross low, maybe around 2 Khz or even a bit less.
Peerless by Tymphany XT25TG30-04 1" Dual Ring Radiator Tweeter
Heres a good woofer, again very easy to use due to smooth response and a good motor.
SB Acoustics SB17MFC35-8 6" Poly Cone Woofer
This is the poly version. Its made in paper and aluminum as well but the poly is seriously easy to use
heres a cheat sheet ha
SBAcoustics-61-MFC
Sooo If your not going to spend a lot and you want a 2 way with at least a reasonable dynamic range and bass extension, then the "2 1/2 way" is your friend.
Simpler two way design with an added woofer often with nothing more than one inductor going to it. This extra woofer takes care of the lean bass below the baffle step of a typical small cone 2 way and increases sensitivity 3-4 db.
If ya want to spend more there are many other ways that Im sure others will mention but the above is imo the easy and cheapest way to get it done.
I recommend this tweeter for smooth response and very easy simple to use. Quite good bang for buck and can cross low, maybe around 2 Khz or even a bit less.
Peerless by Tymphany XT25TG30-04 1" Dual Ring Radiator Tweeter
Heres a good woofer, again very easy to use due to smooth response and a good motor.
SB Acoustics SB17MFC35-8 6" Poly Cone Woofer
This is the poly version. Its made in paper and aluminum as well but the poly is seriously easy to use
heres a cheat sheet ha
SBAcoustics-61-MFC
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Smallish woofers
Lowmass.... I have found that a larger woofer, say 8" - 10" class work way better than nearly all 2-1/2 way using a pair of 6" class woofers. I will admit, if one chooses, or has to stick with as narrow a baffle as possible, there is little choice (default if you will) to go to a 2-1/2 way set up. This assumes the final design has any chance at reasonable bass extension and output.
It comes down, as it always does to sound (no pun intended) engineering. Driver choice, and excellent crossover design. Very few multi-way driver designs do justice to the drivers used. Crossover is SO important. It is amazing how much you can get from well designed low cost drivers. And there are a lot of them out there. We are talking about woofers from less than $20 up to say $70 and tweeters from less than $20 to about $35 each.
You can build a 12" two way with a crossover as high as 2K that will literally disappear. It can have excellent power response and consistent off axis dispersion throughout the mid and upper ranges. 750 - 15K Hz. Easy, no. Doable and effective, yes. Some of the advantages of the larger woofer include minimal driver center to center distance, much lower intermodulation distortion at similar output, simpler crossover, equal or lower cost, simpler baffle fabrication, lower usable frequency extension and higher output capabilities.
Lowmass.... I have found that a larger woofer, say 8" - 10" class work way better than nearly all 2-1/2 way using a pair of 6" class woofers. I will admit, if one chooses, or has to stick with as narrow a baffle as possible, there is little choice (default if you will) to go to a 2-1/2 way set up. This assumes the final design has any chance at reasonable bass extension and output.
It comes down, as it always does to sound (no pun intended) engineering. Driver choice, and excellent crossover design. Very few multi-way driver designs do justice to the drivers used. Crossover is SO important. It is amazing how much you can get from well designed low cost drivers. And there are a lot of them out there. We are talking about woofers from less than $20 up to say $70 and tweeters from less than $20 to about $35 each.
You can build a 12" two way with a crossover as high as 2K that will literally disappear. It can have excellent power response and consistent off axis dispersion throughout the mid and upper ranges. 750 - 15K Hz. Easy, no. Doable and effective, yes. Some of the advantages of the larger woofer include minimal driver center to center distance, much lower intermodulation distortion at similar output, simpler crossover, equal or lower cost, simpler baffle fabrication, lower usable frequency extension and higher output capabilities.
I actually agree with you John, completely.
My problem is I dont know which of the more affordable larger woofers work well.
And yes you are so right about inexpensive drivers performing way above expectations when used with skill.
I am finishing up development on a smaller ribbon capable of good perf to 1K and want to build a two way around it using 8-10 " and also developing a wave guide for the ribbon to use with 15" woof
Would love to get your suggestions on those.
My problem is I dont know which of the more affordable larger woofers work well.
And yes you are so right about inexpensive drivers performing way above expectations when used with skill.
I am finishing up development on a smaller ribbon capable of good perf to 1K and want to build a two way around it using 8-10 " and also developing a wave guide for the ribbon to use with 15" woof
Would love to get your suggestions on those.
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There is no best because there are so many different sets of compromises that are valid.
Myself, i love the magic that a good FR brings to the table, and feel that a WAW (2-way with low XO), can bring as much bass extension as you can afford (money/size/WAF), and with no heavy lifting in the bass, the FR actually gets better, with a virtual elimatination of the evils of XOS. Downside is that it is hard (& expensive) to do a passive XO this low (but possible)/
dave
Myself, i love the magic that a good FR brings to the table, and feel that a WAW (2-way with low XO), can bring as much bass extension as you can afford (money/size/WAF), and with no heavy lifting in the bass, the FR actually gets better, with a virtual elimatination of the evils of XOS. Downside is that it is hard (& expensive) to do a passive XO this low (but possible)/
dave
I do not want to limit myself, not just yet, but i do have a very small listening room and that is a limiting factor. Thanks for your suggestions.
Funny that you mention these drivers since they are what i listen to at the moment, the scan speak version on the tweeter though. They sit in 30 litre floor standing boxes and tuned to 40hz, the motor is a bit weak and i think i need bigger boxes for more output at 40-50hz, i like it a bit peaky in that register. I like these drivers better then the satoris.
Thank you for the suggestion, i will check them up
I have tried fast type speakers with tg9 and different woofers, very impressive at first but not so in the longer run, i thought tg9 started to sound stressed at little higher sound levels, maybe i should order 10f and try the concept again.
The TG9 is OK. But you said best.
Look at the Alpair 5.2/6.2m/7.3. We’ve used the A7.3eN in a couple different WAW with seriously good performance.
Here is another members review of his build: Alpair 7.3eN/12pw WAW build (post 52). pictures @ post #47
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
dave
John, you are so right about the performance of large woofer 2 way systems. As one who has made quite a few revolutions around the sun, I still fondly remember the Dynaco A25 as well as the original Advent. Unfortunately the price of the drivers have skyrocketed. A Seas A26RE4, the modern version of the Dynaco driver goes for $150. I suspect an inexpensive smooth 8" paper driver may be easier to find.
"Funny that you mention these drivers since they are what i listen to at the moment, the scan speak version on the tweeter though. They sit in 30 litre floor standing boxes and tuned to 40hz, the motor is a bit weak and i think i need bigger boxes for more output at 40-50hz, i like it a bit peaky in that register. I like these drivers better then the satoris."
I hear ya. Yea I just mention those drivers out there as examples that are just really easy to use and to feel out where this is going.
As mentioned however no 6 inch is gona do what I think your lookin for, We need much more area to get it.
I am presently at work developing a ribbon tweeter for the sole purpose to be able to use larger woofers in 2 way designs without serious compromise on midrange perf. The idea is to get a small ribbon to goto 1 Khz allowing easy use of many larger woofers.
I have found that so long as I don't have any crossovers above about 1K things become much easier and less skill is needed in the overall design.
The even lower crossed full range as mentioned by some certainly has its advantages, but over time I too miss the advantages of a smaller driver in the upper regions.
Seems to me (at the moment anyway) that a low crossed tweeter crossed to a larger woofer is about the best overall juggling of the compromises to get where I think your going. Im not completely sure however what may be the best approach here.
On the one hand I see a larger 12-15 inch woofer with a wave guided tweeter ( usually compression driver) crossed between about 800-1.2khz . Many swear by this arraignment. Great dynamics and loudness with very good pattern control. In the future I plan to use my ribbon in such a config.
Some talk about using 10-12 inch woofers crossed as high as 2k to a standard dome and having no major issues. I cannot say for sure but seems to me we have a potential for serious off axis response issues with such an arraignment unless the cones mechanical properties are carefully tailored to smoothly become a smaller source as frequency rises??
I hear a lot about very carful tailoring of crossovers to get good sound through mids with the larger woofers but now we are back to complex crossover builds that I personally am trying to avoid.
Anyway Im rambling on about things I don't know well enough to speak authoritatively about. All I know is within the limits of skill and ability of myself and many others I find 2 ways and getting the crossover at or below at least 1 khz makes getting some magic a much easier affair, and this is made easy with a tweeter that can go low.
So far I see an 8 inch woofer with a tweeter crossed no higher than about 1.5 K . or a larger woofer (if can find one well behaved past 1 k) with a wave guided tweeter the help match the woofers dispersion through the crossover
I always wonder however about the clarity and believability of larger woofers (12-15 inch) operating in well controlled breakup modes doing much of the midrange?? Every time I go back to a large pur ribbon I am struck by how "real" it sounds dispite the lack of loudness and dynamics.
Looking forward to see more suggestions from those with more experience and where this thred ends up
I hear ya. Yea I just mention those drivers out there as examples that are just really easy to use and to feel out where this is going.
As mentioned however no 6 inch is gona do what I think your lookin for, We need much more area to get it.
I am presently at work developing a ribbon tweeter for the sole purpose to be able to use larger woofers in 2 way designs without serious compromise on midrange perf. The idea is to get a small ribbon to goto 1 Khz allowing easy use of many larger woofers.
I have found that so long as I don't have any crossovers above about 1K things become much easier and less skill is needed in the overall design.
The even lower crossed full range as mentioned by some certainly has its advantages, but over time I too miss the advantages of a smaller driver in the upper regions.
Seems to me (at the moment anyway) that a low crossed tweeter crossed to a larger woofer is about the best overall juggling of the compromises to get where I think your going. Im not completely sure however what may be the best approach here.
On the one hand I see a larger 12-15 inch woofer with a wave guided tweeter ( usually compression driver) crossed between about 800-1.2khz . Many swear by this arraignment. Great dynamics and loudness with very good pattern control. In the future I plan to use my ribbon in such a config.
Some talk about using 10-12 inch woofers crossed as high as 2k to a standard dome and having no major issues. I cannot say for sure but seems to me we have a potential for serious off axis response issues with such an arraignment unless the cones mechanical properties are carefully tailored to smoothly become a smaller source as frequency rises??
I hear a lot about very carful tailoring of crossovers to get good sound through mids with the larger woofers but now we are back to complex crossover builds that I personally am trying to avoid.
Anyway Im rambling on about things I don't know well enough to speak authoritatively about. All I know is within the limits of skill and ability of myself and many others I find 2 ways and getting the crossover at or below at least 1 khz makes getting some magic a much easier affair, and this is made easy with a tweeter that can go low.
So far I see an 8 inch woofer with a tweeter crossed no higher than about 1.5 K . or a larger woofer (if can find one well behaved past 1 k) with a wave guided tweeter the help match the woofers dispersion through the crossover
I always wonder however about the clarity and believability of larger woofers (12-15 inch) operating in well controlled breakup modes doing much of the midrange?? Every time I go back to a large pur ribbon I am struck by how "real" it sounds dispite the lack of loudness and dynamics.
Looking forward to see more suggestions from those with more experience and where this thred ends up
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I would probably never spend this much on a 2-way design, but seems to do everything about aswell as a 2-way can.
ScanSpeak-Ellipticor-1
ScanSpeak-Ellipticor-1
"It's all about the sound quality you experience in your room"
BEST SOUND when: Each speaker has its own room-optimized crossover, and load-optimized amplifier. Active crossovers support deep bass in a modest volume. MAYBE.. packaging a great 3-way is your main challenge.
Can you accept a TALL speaker cabinet with the electronics on top?
Modest depth?
Artist Painting on the top front panel?
BlueTooth? Single optical fiber?
There are quite good 15" around that are cheaper (and better IMO) per piece than some of the popular 10", and 1 x 15" is more fun than 2 x 10".
How big is big? And how small is small?
2 x 8" can be quite fun and engaging if it's done right and you need a slim build, but I would prefer a single 12" instead.
The "modern" approach to have slim towers sometimes complicate the build nedlessly IMO, and you're stuck making compromises you'd rather avoid.
Multiway crossovers are hard, and takes a lot of time to get right.
How big is big? And how small is small?
2 x 8" can be quite fun and engaging if it's done right and you need a slim build, but I would prefer a single 12" instead.
The "modern" approach to have slim towers sometimes complicate the build nedlessly IMO, and you're stuck making compromises you'd rather avoid.
Multiway crossovers are hard, and takes a lot of time to get right.
Not sure if you are into horns
Take a look at my 2 way. I'm biased but it is very good.full range, extreme dynamic capabilities, one driver 500hz on up gives a magic to voices that I've never heard elsewhere. In a small room, the directivity will help you. It is active but like you said only 2 way it's not terribly complex, especially only needing a couple of watts for the horns. World's best is impossible, best for doing certain things means other things are compromised. Pick your poison, "open" sound, less/more room intetaction, resolution/forgiving to tough recordings.... You see my point. Good luck!
the "SPIEKER" my almost 20 year prototype finally done
Take a look at my 2 way. I'm biased but it is very good.full range, extreme dynamic capabilities, one driver 500hz on up gives a magic to voices that I've never heard elsewhere. In a small room, the directivity will help you. It is active but like you said only 2 way it's not terribly complex, especially only needing a couple of watts for the horns. World's best is impossible, best for doing certain things means other things are compromised. Pick your poison, "open" sound, less/more room intetaction, resolution/forgiving to tough recordings.... You see my point. Good luck!
the "SPIEKER" my almost 20 year prototype finally done
Does an array count?
I figured that’s the way to added area without extra circuitry.
Not sure what part of more complex speakers you don’t like, if it’s the added crossover, or just the idea of added stuff.
My Dad had witnessed something impressive back in 1970 with a large array at Governors State University outside of Chicago in their sound lab.
I still prefer my small magnepans with the series crossovers, after trying different setups, but my next choice would probably be an array of maybe 4-5” drivers.
I figured that’s the way to added area without extra circuitry.
Not sure what part of more complex speakers you don’t like, if it’s the added crossover, or just the idea of added stuff.
My Dad had witnessed something impressive back in 1970 with a large array at Governors State University outside of Chicago in their sound lab.
I still prefer my small magnepans with the series crossovers, after trying different setups, but my next choice would probably be an array of maybe 4-5” drivers.
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