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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

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Old 9th January 2019, 02:18 PM   #1
Martigane is offline Martigane
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Smile 3-way TQWT 10”/6”/1” - Seas ; Satori - need woofer advise!!

Hello everybody,

I am currently trying to design my first DIY speaker, a 3-way 10/12”- 6”- 1” and hesitate between 2 options, described below.
I would greatly appreciate if you have any advice on drivers to be used, as this is the biggest question mark for me before I pull the trigger.
I have a budget of ~800EUROS for the complete stereo driver set. (flexible)


So far, I plan to use:
  • An LR2 cross-over: W – ~300hz – M – 2600Hz – T. Using quality components (to be fine-tuned).
  • Two separate cabs for mid and woofer in 22mm Ply Wood/ MDF + bracing.
    • M: ~15L closed box.
    • W: ~65L Transmission Line. (offset ~0.3 ; 1:6 ratio)
  • Stepped Mid baffle to have time alignment between Mid and Tweeter.



OPTION 1:

  • Tweeter: SB29RDCN-C000-4 (also contemplating TW29RN-B-8 or SB26ADC-C000-4, even D3004/660000)
  • Mid: Satori MR16P-8
  • Woofer: Seas CA26RFX H1305-08
    OR, ordered by preference:
  • 26W/8534G00 (cheap, great on paper, but 3rd HD quickly raises above 200Hz)
  • 10" SB29NRX75-6
  • 12” SB34NRX75-6 (low impedance and high Vas of 260L)
  • 12” SB34NRXL75-8 (expensive, large outter diameter, too sensitive compared to mid?)
  • DC300-8 12" (I have not seen its HD, a bit heavy for my taste)
Pros:
  • 8ohms nominal amplifier-friendly impedance
  • Woofer’s Qts of 0.34 is a good fit for transmission line.
Cons:
  • CA26RFX woofer will be the weakest element of the chain. A shame since I really plan to fine-tune the transmission line.
  • SB29RDCN tweeter might have a bit high Harmonic Distortion for my taste, but I never tried it.

__________________________________________________ _______

OPTION 2: use of High efficiency woofer:

  • Tweeter:SB29RDCN-C000-4 (also contemplating TW29RN-B-8)
  • - Mid: Satori MR16P-4
  • - Woofer: Dayton 12” PA310-8
    OR..?

Pros:
  • Great sensitivity, 92-93dB average
  • Pro woofer brings fast, articulated BASS
Cons:
  • Woofer might not go low enough
  • Difficulty to match Mid and Woofer sensitivity.



OPTION 3 would be to go active on the woofer, allowing me to correct room response, but I do not plan this yet (messy setup, potential quality loss in RCA cables, extra cost)



I have access to an acoustic lab with Microphone, DATS v2, Keyence Laser for membrane measurement, Klippel, and even a vibrometer to fine-tune the box if needed. (Lucky me )


I plan to keep the speakers in the lab, and fine-tune them until I optimized all variables that could impact the performances. (I plan to move from apartment to home within a year, so not fine-tune for the room)
By the way, if somebody is interested in reusing my optimized design later on, I could share everything I have. Even better: if somebody would like us to do this build together, we could order all components twice and have better pairing of the drivers/cross over components.
I had a look at many DIY sites, especially Troels, and the Jenzen CA was first on my list for a while.

Last edited by Martigane; 9th January 2019 at 08:25 PM.
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Old 9th January 2019, 09:09 PM   #2
denibeni is online now denibeni  Hungary
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The Satori MR16P-4 has high enough sensitivity to mate with most 12" pro woofer after baffle step loss included.
Even more so, if you calculate with the slight pass-band boost of the mid-range, mounted on the typical rectangular baffle.
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Old 10th January 2019, 12:13 AM   #3
LineSource is offline LineSource  United States
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Right Brain Genius?

Since you want physical time alignment between the tweeter and midrange with LR2/LR2, consider a low diffraction sphere as used by B&W. Ikea Bowls are common in the USA.

With a passive LR2 crossover using AWG-15 inductor on the midrange, a 4-ohm high efficiency design will produce greater details and dynamics. Most amplifiers deliver significantly higher transient current into a 4-ohm load.

1" SB26STCN-C000-4 44mm diameter LR2/LR2 at 2000Hz
6" Satori MR16P-4 Nelson Pass: "Very impressed with the sound of this midrange."
12” SB34NRXL75-8 very musical = worth the extra cost. 91db sensitivity
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Old 10th January 2019, 12:29 AM   #4
Dave Bullet is offline Dave Bullet  New Zealand
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AS above - but replace the 12" with 2 * 9.5" SBA Satori WO24P-4 woofers to get same SD. Same F3 ported but potentially much lower bass distortion than the SB34 (I am comparing the non long-throw version here).
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Old 10th January 2019, 03:20 PM   #5
LineSource is offline LineSource  United States
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As a size example, Troels Fusion cabinet uses (stepped baffle 1") + 6" + 12".

You could parallel two 8" aluminum cone SB23NACS45-8 woofers for deep bass and modest cost. Fs=25Hz, Qtc=0.37
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Old 10th January 2019, 03:23 PM   #6
Martigane is offline Martigane
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Hi all,

Thanks for the feedback.
I actually tend to be more left-brained

Going for 2*10"might be appealing but this quickly becomes out of budget, and decreases the impedance as well in low frequencies.


Good to hear that 12” SB34NRXL75-8 is musical. Only downside is its large outer diameter, it will require a very large box, I'd have to check WAF first.

Isn't the 91dB sensitivity of the woofer going to be too low compared to mid's 92dB if I factor in the Baffle Step loss?
This Baffle Step Loss would most likely be happening from below 300Hz as a -6dB Low shelving for a 40cm wide front baffle. Then it would make sense to target much higher woofer sensitivity as I will cross it around 300Hz (or 8ohms Mid with lower sens), correct?
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Old 10th January 2019, 04:02 PM   #7
denibeni is online now denibeni  Hungary
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Yes, with the SB34 you need to attenuate the mid at least 3-4dB or probably more or get a higher sensitivity woofer(s). But it depends on your room acoustics and speaker placement too.

Last edited by denibeni; 10th January 2019 at 04:22 PM.
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Old 10th January 2019, 05:43 PM   #8
LineSource is offline LineSource  United States
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Run a few room simulations to get a feel for placement effects.

Bi-Amping with a DSP engine can smooth both baffle step and room effects.
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Old 11th January 2019, 04:23 AM   #9
Dave Bullet is offline Dave Bullet  New Zealand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martigane View Post
Hi all,

Thanks for the feedback.
I actually tend to be more left-brained

Going for 2*10"might be appealing but this quickly becomes out of budget, and decreases the impedance as well in low frequencies.
Budget = fair enough.

For impedance - go for 2 * 4 ohm versions in series. You still halve your excursion and unless you are lacking in amplifier power or have a seriously large space, that's ok.
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"Usual diyaudio train wreck of dubious drivers and just the crossover to sort out. Well, how are you on crossovers and modelling? Pretty green, I reckon" - system7 (Steve)
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Old 11th January 2019, 03:21 PM   #10
Martigane is offline Martigane
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Going for 2 drivers in parallel might screw up with the Qts and the damping factor or each drivers, I would rather avoid that.


Do you know any other musical woofer (fs<35Hz ; Qts<0.4 ; Qms>3 ; Sensitivity >90dB), 10 or 12", that would be <250EUROS?

Do you observe a correlation between woofer musicality and Moving Mass/sensitivity?
Maybe there are more relevant parameters to watch?

Last edited by Martigane; 11th January 2019 at 03:42 PM.
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