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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

How much low frequency for the satellites of a 5.1 HT?
How much low frequency for the satellites of a 5.1 HT?
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Old 6th January 2019, 02:14 PM   #11
cspieker is offline cspieker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bentoronto View Post
Possibly in a lab setting, people can just barely exceed random guessing at 80 Hz. But in real life with L and R and a screen in the middle, not a chance you need less than 140 Hz (with clean speakers and steep slopes).

Excepting people who claim they are clairvoyant or have special powers of hearing, many have posted here about being fully satisfied with highish freq crossover.

.
For LCR I agree, if sub is close to them. Until recently I assumed surrounds were the same and I was pretty satisfied, until I heard what I was missing with surrounds capable of low bass. I was extremely surprised how much things improved going from 100hz xo to 40hz xo. I ended up with 60hz to improve power handling but 40 was better. I wouldn't have believed it before I heard it. I stumbled on a website Making the same argument about bass being localizable from rear surrounds. Wish I had a link to it. They have a bass management system that uses multiple rear subwoofers to supplement the surrounds.
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Old 6th January 2019, 04:53 PM   #12
bentoronto is offline bentoronto  Canada
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How much low frequency for the satellites of a 5.1 HT?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cspieker View Post
For LCR I agree, if sub is close to them. Until recently I assumed surrounds were the same and I was pretty satisfied, until I heard what I was missing with surrounds capable of low bass. I was extremely surprised how much things improved going from 100hz xo to 40hz xo. I ended up with 60hz to improve power handling but 40 was better. I wouldn't have believed it before I heard it. I stumbled on a website Making the same argument about bass being localizable from rear surrounds. Wish I had a link to it. They have a bass management system that uses multiple rear subwoofers to supplement the surrounds.
As far as spatial localization for music (and I suppose HT), I'll stick with saying up to 140 Hz (with usual further assumptions) is just fine.

Yes, lots of ways to have better bass, but that won't improve spatial localization (which, as I suggest, isn't impaired with a single sub). For example, you could have three subs or you could put your money on a motional feedback sub and get serous earthquake sounds.

In the event that the folks who make HT sound put some different or added bass tracks into the rear speakers, that's a different story. Anybody know?

B.
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Old 7th January 2019, 04:34 PM   #13
cspieker is offline cspieker
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Dolby atmos specs a - 6dB of 40hz for surrounds unless rear subwoofers are used. Movie tracks do contain full range signals in the surround channels.
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Old 7th January 2019, 05:52 PM   #14
bentoronto is offline bentoronto  Canada
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How much low frequency for the satellites of a 5.1 HT?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cspieker View Post
Dolby atmos specs a - 6dB of 40hz for surrounds unless rear subwoofers are used. Movie tracks do contain full range signals in the surround channels.
Anybody know just what ".1" means?

B.
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Old 7th January 2019, 06:10 PM   #15
cbdb is offline cbdb  Canada
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.1 is the sub. 5.1 is 5 full freq channels and a sub channel limited to around .1 of the freq range. Easy way to write it. So 9.1 is 9 full range plus sub.
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Old 7th January 2019, 07:07 PM   #16
bentoronto is offline bentoronto  Canada
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How much low frequency for the satellites of a 5.1 HT?
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Originally Posted by cbdb View Post
.1 is the sub. 5.1 is 5 full freq channels and a sub channel limited to around .1 of the freq range. Easy way to write it. So 9.1 is 9 full range plus sub.
Thanks. But my question really had to do with how the sound is cut up. Does the ".1" includes the rear bass (since low freq are not spatially localizable at all). And if it does, is that LF feed removed from some or all or just rear satellite speakers? And if not removed from the satellite speakers, how in the world could a quality audiophile get the crossover feeds right?

Actually, I think I may be asking a question that a lot of people wish I hadn't asked since the answer (for most home movie gear) isn't pretty.*

B.
* for ordinary gear, my guess is that the full range (or little bit of LF cut) goes to the satellites and all bass is mixed to the .1. If you are lucky and have poor satellites and if they don't howl when they get too much bass, it all works out OK since movie bass is just hokey made-up feel-good sound. But if you had good satellites (as someone earlier posted) things just get weird and unpredictable.
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Last edited by bentoronto; 7th January 2019 at 07:15 PM.
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Old 7th January 2019, 07:52 PM   #17
Robh3606 is offline Robh3606  United States
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Quote:
.1 is the sub. 5.1 is 5 full freq channels and a sub channel limited to around .1 of the freq range. Easy way to write it. So 9.1 is 9 full range plus sub.
It all depends on the bass management and which speakers are designated as full range. You could have all 5 speakers as limited range and have all of the bass out of the subwoofer including the LFE channel. So it's LFE plus any "small" speakers usually surrounds and center with full range mains in a typical dual use music and movie 5.1 set-up.

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Old 7th January 2019, 08:38 PM   #18
cbdb is offline cbdb  Canada
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I was talking about the delivery channels. What you do with them after that depends on your dsp.
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Old 7th January 2019, 08:41 PM   #19
bentoronto is offline bentoronto  Canada
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How much low frequency for the satellites of a 5.1 HT?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robh3606 View Post
It all depends on the bass management and which speakers are designated as full range. You could have all 5 speakers as limited range and have all of the bass out of the subwoofer...
My A/V amp talks that way but just still a wild guess at how the signals are cut up to the speakers in the cheap modules inside the amp.

Funny, everywhere else in this forum people are psychiatrically obsessive about crossover details of every sort. But with my A/V amp, you just play it by ear.

I don't even know how I would test my A/V amp (using REW or whatever) since it does all kinds of tricks to the feeds.

I wonder how many quality-conscious audiophiles on this forum have a HT serve as their music room?

B.
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Last edited by bentoronto; 7th January 2019 at 08:45 PM.
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Old 7th January 2019, 08:45 PM   #20
cbdb is offline cbdb  Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bentoronto View Post
Thanks. But my question really had to do with how the sound is cut up. Does the ".1" includes the rear bass (since low freq are not spatially localizable at all). And if it does, is that LF feed removed from some or all or just rear satellite speakers? And if not removed from the satellite speakers, how in the world could a quality audiophile get the crossover feeds right?

Actually, I think I may be asking a question that a lot of people wish I hadn't asked since the answer (for most home movie gear) isn't pretty.*

B.
* for ordinary gear, my guess is that the full range (or little bit of LF cut) goes to the satellites and all bass is mixed to the .1. If you are lucky and have poor satellites and if they don't howl when they get too much bass, it all works out OK since movie bass is just hokey made-up feel-good sound. But if you had good satellites (as someone earlier posted) things just get weird and unpredictable.
Most HT recievers have dsp settings for "steering" the bass away from the full range speakers to the sub. Some even let you set the xover freqs.
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