I can't seem to find any sealed designs using the Illuminator 12U mid... any suggestions?
Looking for:
- Floor standing 2.5/3 way based around the Illuminator 12U as mid
- Slanted baffle / 1st order crossovers
- Separate cabinet for mid and woofer. I was planning on sealed woofer, but using Linkwitz Transform to extend the response.
Just thought I'd ask...
Looking for:
- Floor standing 2.5/3 way based around the Illuminator 12U as mid
- Slanted baffle / 1st order crossovers
- Separate cabinet for mid and woofer. I was planning on sealed woofer, but using Linkwitz Transform to extend the response.
Just thought I'd ask...
Hello stretchneck,
I can't seem to find a reason why this community could not come up with a 1st order crossover proposal although this kind of a minimalistic filtering would be anything but a high quality solution, unlike the drive units. Have you figured other drivers, perhaps a Scan Speak family?
I can't seem to find a reason why this community could not come up with a 1st order crossover proposal although this kind of a minimalistic filtering would be anything but a high quality solution, unlike the drive units. Have you figured other drivers, perhaps a Scan Speak family?
Illuminator is Scanspeak... 1st order seems really rare due to the need for suitably wide band drivers. I have found the old 'Geers eVe ii' project which is a sealed design, but 2nd order and based on Revelator.
Seems as though almost all designs are ported to lower the f3 and maintain sensible design proportions. My reason for sealed is trying to minimise group delay, but I continue to research this and it might not be such an issue afterall, as I am lead to believe that a correctly implemented port would only affect the group delay at the very lowest registers. So I'm coming around to the ideas of a 1st order design, but ported.
Apparently a Linkwitz Transform also increases group delay, so it might be that it'd provide the same outcome as ported. I need to research more.
I'm actually coming around to the idea of a project like the 10F/8424 & RS225-8 FAST Ref Monitor even though it means using different drivers it is minimum phase, low group delay, transient perfect and good step response (which are my aims). Great work from xrk971!
Seems as though almost all designs are ported to lower the f3 and maintain sensible design proportions. My reason for sealed is trying to minimise group delay, but I continue to research this and it might not be such an issue afterall, as I am lead to believe that a correctly implemented port would only affect the group delay at the very lowest registers. So I'm coming around to the ideas of a 1st order design, but ported.
Apparently a Linkwitz Transform also increases group delay, so it might be that it'd provide the same outcome as ported. I need to research more.
I'm actually coming around to the idea of a project like the 10F/8424 & RS225-8 FAST Ref Monitor even though it means using different drivers it is minimum phase, low group delay, transient perfect and good step response (which are my aims). Great work from xrk971!
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If you do not already own the 12mu-4731t00, you should consider building the Satori KALASAN. You will get a proven excellent sounding slanted baffle design with LR2 crossover circuits. You can later experiment with 1st order crossover circuits against the Kalasan. Add-on woofers are also discussed.
World Expert Joachim Gerhard created the Kalasan as an open design for SB-Acoustics.
The $52 SB29RDC-4 tweeter measures almost identical to the $132 Satori TW29R-4 tweeter used in Kalasan.
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SB Acoustics Satori Monitor - diyAudio
Joachim Gerhard final Satori Kalasan crossover 5.0 circuits from the Kalasan diyAudio thread. # 700
--SB Acoustics Satori Monitor
measurements post# 699
crossover circuits post# 700
photos post# 801 762 746
There are two common cabinets with slanted baffles for time and phase alignment: box with 6-degree slanted baffle; pyramid shape with slanted baffle.
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If you already own the 12mu-4731t00, and desire a more artistic style, you could put the 12mu-4731t00 in front+rear IKEA BOWLs to reduce diffraction, and time align the small 46mm diameter SB26STCN-4 along the slope. The smaller dome SB21SDC-4 is a wide dispersion 2.5kHz match to the 12mu-4731T00 which you can also use.
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TWO 7" 18WU/8741T00 8-ohm woofers in a ported cabinet are often used under the 4-ohm 12MU/4731T00. Naturally, you can seal the cabinet and add bass bost ea. Troels Ekta Grande II cabinet can be adjusted to these drivers. If you design a vertical baffle you can add screw-height adjustable feet in front to experiment with adjustable tilt for time alignment.
World Expert Joachim Gerhard created the Kalasan as an open design for SB-Acoustics.
The $52 SB29RDC-4 tweeter measures almost identical to the $132 Satori TW29R-4 tweeter used in Kalasan.
=====
SB Acoustics Satori Monitor - diyAudio
Joachim Gerhard final Satori Kalasan crossover 5.0 circuits from the Kalasan diyAudio thread. # 700
--SB Acoustics Satori Monitor
measurements post# 699
crossover circuits post# 700
photos post# 801 762 746
There are two common cabinets with slanted baffles for time and phase alignment: box with 6-degree slanted baffle; pyramid shape with slanted baffle.
===========================
===========================
If you already own the 12mu-4731t00, and desire a more artistic style, you could put the 12mu-4731t00 in front+rear IKEA BOWLs to reduce diffraction, and time align the small 46mm diameter SB26STCN-4 along the slope. The smaller dome SB21SDC-4 is a wide dispersion 2.5kHz match to the 12mu-4731T00 which you can also use.
========================
====
TWO 7" 18WU/8741T00 8-ohm woofers in a ported cabinet are often used under the 4-ohm 12MU/4731T00. Naturally, you can seal the cabinet and add bass bost ea. Troels Ekta Grande II cabinet can be adjusted to these drivers. If you design a vertical baffle you can add screw-height adjustable feet in front to experiment with adjustable tilt for time alignment.
Thanks LineSource - I have followed a few of your posts and they're always helpful.
I haven't purchased the 12MU yet, I have been concentrating on finding what driver I'd like for mid range first. On paper, the best designs for me are the Jeff Bagby Kairos and Spirit Wind. However there has been feedback by jtgofish in post #52 that the Kairos 3 ways is not so great.
I saw the Satori KALASAN a while back - but no drawings for the pyramid enclosure. Do you know where / if they can be found?
The Ekta mkII is probably a good compromise, just a shame there's no information regarding if it's minimum phase or how the group response performs.
I haven't purchased the 12MU yet, I have been concentrating on finding what driver I'd like for mid range first. On paper, the best designs for me are the Jeff Bagby Kairos and Spirit Wind. However there has been feedback by jtgofish in post #52 that the Kairos 3 ways is not so great.
I saw the Satori KALASAN a while back - but no drawings for the pyramid enclosure. Do you know where / if they can be found?
The Ekta mkII is probably a good compromise, just a shame there's no information regarding if it's minimum phase or how the group response performs.
Further to this & your very helpful post. I have now read through all 915 posts (some of them great!) has lead me to believe that a sealed version of the Kairos, or the Spirit Wind, would be best for me. But then mate it with an active version of the PBN Audio XMax woofer base - bit like Wilson Audio Watt/Puppy.
Joachim reports the Kalasan as being 'on the light and airy side but also liquid and low in fatique' - by what I read this seems to be the characteristic of SB acoustic drivers. So I think the SB acoustic drivers being so neutral would need an additional woofer section. This is one reason why I was looking at the 12MU(Illuminator), 18W(Revelator) and 18H (Acoustic Technology) mid ranges - all slightly warmer by what I understand.
Joachim also provides information on the woofer section in post #688: The Watt-Puppy is intelligent in that sense that dual woofers are used. That spreads the Allison effect vertically so that it is not pronounced at a single frequency. That makes the critical fundamental tone area more fleshed out and " warmer".
Joachim reports the Kalasan as being 'on the light and airy side but also liquid and low in fatique' - by what I read this seems to be the characteristic of SB acoustic drivers. So I think the SB acoustic drivers being so neutral would need an additional woofer section. This is one reason why I was looking at the 12MU(Illuminator), 18W(Revelator) and 18H (Acoustic Technology) mid ranges - all slightly warmer by what I understand.
Joachim also provides information on the woofer section in post #688: The Watt-Puppy is intelligent in that sense that dual woofers are used. That spreads the Allison effect vertically so that it is not pronounced at a single frequency. That makes the critical fundamental tone area more fleshed out and " warmer".
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Madisound never launched the Kalisan kit - according to their Facebook page it was supposed to launch back in 2013/2014 so no chance of getting it now.
A diy "Kalasan" using the $52 SB29RDC tweeter and modest cost LRC crossover parts offers great value with low risk.
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The Kalasan slanted baffle box dimensions are 30cm wide, 40cm high and 24cm bottom-deep (11.8"W 15.8"H 9.5"D ~0.7cuft internal volume). There is a 25 - 32mm thick baffle. 8-degree baffle tilt
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The Madisound Facebook pages on pyramid Kalasans suggest that no supplier for the cabinets was available. Pyramid Kalasan cabinet dimensions: Using the speaker diameter as a reference, you can put the pyramid cabinet pics on a grid to get the front baffle dimensions. 8-degree tilt. Adjust depth to produce ~ 0.7 cuft internal volume
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A sealed Qtc= 0.7 tuned woofer, bi-amped with active equalization should produce deep bass and blend well with a sealed Kalasan. A single 10" or 12" woofer would produce a good wavefront launch, but a pair of 8" woofers would allow a narrow bottom box. The bass crossover frequency is low enough to support a side mounted woofer with quarter-wavelength spacing.
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The Kalasan slanted baffle box dimensions are 30cm wide, 40cm high and 24cm bottom-deep (11.8"W 15.8"H 9.5"D ~0.7cuft internal volume). There is a 25 - 32mm thick baffle. 8-degree baffle tilt
=========
The Madisound Facebook pages on pyramid Kalasans suggest that no supplier for the cabinets was available. Pyramid Kalasan cabinet dimensions: Using the speaker diameter as a reference, you can put the pyramid cabinet pics on a grid to get the front baffle dimensions. 8-degree tilt. Adjust depth to produce ~ 0.7 cuft internal volume
==========
A sealed Qtc= 0.7 tuned woofer, bi-amped with active equalization should produce deep bass and blend well with a sealed Kalasan. A single 10" or 12" woofer would produce a good wavefront launch, but a pair of 8" woofers would allow a narrow bottom box. The bass crossover frequency is low enough to support a side mounted woofer with quarter-wavelength spacing.
Attachments
Kalasan pyramid cabinet dimensions gleamed from pictures of light wood example cabinet with edge bevels. A starting estimate for your 3D CAD tools.
0.75" thick wood used
Bottom = 12" wide
-bottom angle = 80 degrees
Top = 6.4" wide
-top angle = 10 degrees
Height = 16"
Depth at top of cabinet = 10" for 0.7cuft
Depth at bottom of cabinet = 12.25 for 0.7cuft
Depth at top of cabinet = 8" for 0.5cuft
Depth at bottom of cabinet = 10.25 for 0.5cuft
Woofer center = 6.5" up from bottom
Tweeter center = 12.5" up from bottom
Front Baffle has 8-degree rear slant
The 12" bottom width can match a 10" or 8" woofer cabinet.
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xxxFOR COMPARISON: KAIROS 0.7cuft CABINET DIMENSIONS
xxxDimensions: 16” tall x 9” wide x 13.5” deep at bottom, 9.5” deep at top.
0.75" thick wood used
Bottom = 12" wide
-bottom angle = 80 degrees
Top = 6.4" wide
-top angle = 10 degrees
Height = 16"
Depth at top of cabinet = 10" for 0.7cuft
Depth at bottom of cabinet = 12.25 for 0.7cuft
Depth at top of cabinet = 8" for 0.5cuft
Depth at bottom of cabinet = 10.25 for 0.5cuft
Woofer center = 6.5" up from bottom
Tweeter center = 12.5" up from bottom
Front Baffle has 8-degree rear slant
The 12" bottom width can match a 10" or 8" woofer cabinet.
======
xxxFOR COMPARISON: KAIROS 0.7cuft CABINET DIMENSIONS
xxxDimensions: 16” tall x 9” wide x 13.5” deep at bottom, 9.5” deep at top.
Attachments
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