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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

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Old 8th December 2018, 08:02 PM   #21
Charles Darwin is offline Charles Darwin  United Kingdom
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Given that the XT1086 is an 80degree horn and it takes over from a 10" driver 1.6k seems to be a very sensible xover point.
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Old 8th December 2018, 09:57 PM   #22
The Space Egg Corp is offline The Space Egg Corp  England
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Maddona sounds pretty whacky monoed & played through a 4x12 Marshall cab. !

Remove the back from the cab. & somehow it sounds much better.


Si.

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Old 8th December 2018, 10:10 PM   #23
The Space Egg Corp is offline The Space Egg Corp  England
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Dunno about those 10" midrange drivers ...

... but the 'Volt' 8"s will play very well to over 3 KHz ...

... which is good & a real benefit to hear less filtering artifacts lower down.


It doen't seem like much going from 1600 Hz to 3000 Hz ...

... but listen to those 2 tones & it makes things clearer I think.

That dude with the big monitors said 1600 Hz & 5000 Hz were the start points didn't he ?


Meaning the actual X-over is more like 3150 Hz ...

... achieving the 'magic' over 3 KHz goal.


It could be tricky to find that many 10"/8" drivers that can do that well though ...

... just guessing & a bit from experience I think.


The drivers need a BIG magnet & light cones to do this ...

... a bit like the 'Volt' 8"s.


Si.

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Hi there Charles Darwin !

How's your beard & the dinosaur bones collection ? ;-)

What happened to your Avatar ?

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Old 8th December 2018, 10:42 PM   #24
Coasttocoast is offline Coasttocoast  United States
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Wow! A lot of action here while I was at the shop working on my Babelfish Amp chassis.

All I can say is thanks for posting and expressing your thoughts. That’s what makes DIYAUDIO fun for me! I mean, this is for fun right?

It’s good fun to run through Audiogon’s speaker for sale list. Easy to see a lot of different speakers and their related finished and designs. Every one of those speakers had designers and builders to get to the finished product, everyone was somebody’s baby at one time, and met some threshold of being the best speaker for someone to buy.

That being said I have built an open baffle, couple of full range, couple of subs, my 3-way Ekta Grande’s and set of separate boxes for a tweeter, a 10” and a 22”. All fun, and learned along the way.

Digging around Troels site I saw “The Loudspeaker” and thought interesting but too big. Then digging around on the web I saw the ML-1’s by Mark Levenson, mostly liked the looks and similar size drivers as Troels. And I started thinking, well maybe not too big Later I was talking to my friend who was in the HiFi business here, and he had great things to say about the ML-1 sound. So here we are, on another speaker journey.

So a little more about the active, passive components. If Hypex sold a FA504 I would buy it, or better yet a FA503.5. But they don’t, And I really don’t want to mount 2 plate amps into the cabinet to get there that way. Yes, a separate “box” with 4 amps and dsp would be a good idea. But not sold on mini anything and looks too clumsy to put something together from Hypex, unless you can find someone to sell you from the commercial line.

So my plan is to actually just run the 18” from one channel from the Hypex and the rest of the speaker with my Babelfish. But for a couple hundred bucks I can get the 2 channel amp and compare the sound with running the rest of the speaker from the 2nd channel of the Hypex. Make sense?

On the back panel of the speaker cabinet I’ll have an aluminum plate made to match the Hypex to hold all the binding posts. It will be of a size large enough that if and when in the future class D amps w/dsp, that are available to the public, get to the point that it makes sense I can just have front panel express cut me up a new set to match those requirements, easy!
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Old 8th December 2018, 11:36 PM   #25
Charles Darwin is offline Charles Darwin  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Space Egg Corp View Post
Hi there Charles Darwin ! What happened to your Avatar ?
The idea is to match dispersion at crossover. A 10" will narrow to 90deg at about 1.4k and since the horn has 80deg one should cross a little higher so 1.6-1.7 seems about right.
If that 10 can't do it there are plenty which can.

Never had an avatar.
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Old 8th December 2018, 11:40 PM   #26
Charles Darwin is offline Charles Darwin  United Kingdom
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Originally Posted by Coasttocoast View Post

So a little more about the active, passive components. If Hypex sold a FA504 I would buy it, or better yet a FA503.5. But they don’t, And I really don’t want to mount 2 plate amps into the cabinet to get there that way. Yes, a separate “box” with 4 amps and dsp would be a good idea. But not sold on mini anything and looks too clumsy to put something together from Hypex, unless you can find someone to sell you from the commercial line.
I'd get 503s and forget about the supertweter, I just can't see it adding anything but complications.
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Old 9th December 2018, 12:41 AM   #27
koja is offline koja  Canada
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Darwin tried to point you towards an important point:

there is "playing well" on axis and then there is "playing well over the intended dispersion field" which involves designing crossovers for off axis performance; and this is where the size of the driver and the depth of the cone start to matter. I learnt this some years back at the home of Earl Geddes while auditioning his speakers, and later at home when making Linkwitz designs.

Even Troels started lately to take some off axis measurements. However, on this project, for all the hokus pokus and showing off the measurements for the individual drivers I did not see off axis measurements for the complete system. Don't you find that strange for a project which involves the use of a horn?

Even the on axis curve looks like a simulation and not a measurement. At one point he even said the measurement did not look as nice but was the best he could do. He is a good designer but this project is really substandard work for him because it was clear that it took him out of his comfort zone.

One should pay attention when on demanding projects he commented that when getting tired he was using his OB to blow out his brain on breaks .
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Old 9th December 2018, 03:39 AM   #28
The Space Egg Corp is offline The Space Egg Corp  England
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He did talk about filter points at 1.6 KHz and 5 KHz right ?

So effectively crossing over at about say 3.15 KHz ?


I can't help wondering if a better, more practical & affordable result could have been had ...

... from binning the super bat-ears driver & just going with the horn an 8" and 15" though ?


Someone said there's a couple of commercial connections going on here ?

Promoting expensive X-over parts & drivers right ?

Mmm ...


Si.

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Old 9th December 2018, 03:02 PM   #29
etalon90 is offline etalon90  Canada
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I tend to agree. For a while, his design started to implement DSP for Bass duty but he still do the Passive crossover for midrange and tweeter...

Anybody that used both active and passive know that Active win almost every time... It may be that if you sell one crossover (Hypex or MiniDSP) for a finished kit and compare the potential profit of selling more passive crossover parts, the "design decision" start to make sense... ($$$)

Also, OP already bought the driver but I would had go the dual 15" instead of the single 18". dual 15" have more SD, will distort less and will be more efficient... aside, you could also use push pull design and null most of the cabinet resonance, a single 18" doesn't allow this.

YMMV
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Old 9th December 2018, 04:36 PM   #30
beardman is offline beardman  Denmark
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I have tried the hypex for the 18" but my Gryphon plays a good deal better,,with the passive crossover

i have tried Groundsound on my former speaker, but preferred the passive on that speaker

the ideer with active is good,,,but i have discovered that it is necessary with same amp

to all unit...it does not for me sound right with different types of amp
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