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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

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Old 6th December 2018, 05:23 PM   #21
marco_gea is offline marco_gea  Italy
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: London, UK
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneminde View Post
Regarding horn super tweeters, not that I am aware of. Might have listened to one or two without paying attention in the 90's. No matter, I would need to do so now that I consciously am working on loudspeakers.

Any particular recommendations which you have personal experience with ?
I personally use these, high-passed at 6kHz (12dB/oct) and driven by a class A MOS-FET amplifier.


Under those conditions
, they sound very, very "real" to me.

At the same time, though, they are very revealing and won't tolerate being "abused".

I.e., if fed lower frequencies, or driven by amps that are "noisy" in the ultra-high frequencies (like many class D, and even some class AB amps), they can easily be made to sound "harsh" and "spitty".

Instead, under the same "abusive" conditions, a soft-dome tweeter, say, will sound "smoother" and more "laid back", leading many to conclude (wrongly, I would say) that the soft domes are therefore "better"...
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Old 6th December 2018, 05:46 PM   #22
Oneminde is offline Oneminde
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@ marco_gea: Does tweeters has a heft price attached to them and they better deliver

You are absolutely correct in that source or amp issues are real and soft domes are indeed more forgiving, that is their supreme advantage. In a way, they hide the reality, even perhaps make your amplifier sound better than it is. I know this first hand, amps do impact how a loudspeaker sound and its not a minor part either.
Therefore, as some say, upgrade your amplifier, DAC, source material (low quality mp3 -> CDA/FLAC) before you upgrade your loudspeakers and you might experience a pleasant change ... or as it has been indicated in this thread, change caps.
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Old 6th December 2018, 05:54 PM   #23
mark100 is offline mark100  United States
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Interesting thread.
Since I made the switch from typical home audio designs to compression drivers, i always find myself wondering if I've been leaving any HF/VHF excellence on the table.
I get that comparing dispersion is apples to oranges, but i always wonder about distortion, etc.

Looking at the distortion plots on the the various drivers (very nice presentation BTW),
I don't see anything that clearly looks better than what I've been measuring with a bms 4594HE..
or at least i don't think so...here's a plot at 1/48th ...
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File Type: jpg DIY60 Harmonic 1-48th.JPG (184.0 KB, 98 views)
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Old 6th December 2018, 06:06 PM   #24
Oneminde is offline Oneminde
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@ mark100: That looks like a HQ measurement, the only problem is; I HATE horn loudspeakers. I can't deal with the throaty nature of them. Its odd because to me, I hear the source (driver) and reflected horn (distortion) at the same time and there is inter-modular issues. And it happens time after time when I audition horn loudspeakers. I have asked people about this phenomena but its seems though as I am alone in picking up such an acoustical / auditory behavior. The last horn loudspeaker I gave a chance was one from Avantgarde Acoustics.
It could be that since you are using a horn as a passive amplifier, if the compression driver has to much SPL, it "over shoots" the horn amplification. I just don't know, its a problem for me and I don't know how to solve it.
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Old 6th December 2018, 06:19 PM   #25
olsond3 is offline olsond3  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneminde View Post
A power factor you say... hmm. How do you academically connect impedance and acoustical performance ? I come from the Fr response and harmonics perspective and would love to hear more about yours. Impedance or damping do indeed change how much power can be delivered from the amplifier, but that is an SPL aspect. Like when I adjust the volume, the SPL goes up and down, but that does not affect the overall acoustical performance in terms of laid back or forward - well, until you get uncomfortably loud and cone breakup is present further down in its Fr band, but that is SPL distortion ... Two different things
Maybe defining "laid back" and "forward" would help here. I assumed it was a change in high frequency magnitude frequency response. If so, changes in impedance vs frequency will change the frequency response, no?
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Old 6th December 2018, 06:21 PM   #26
mark100 is offline mark100  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneminde View Post
@ mark100: That looks like a HQ measurement, the only problem is; I HATE horn loudspeakers. I can't deal with the throaty nature of them. Its odd because to me, I hear the source (driver) and reflected horn (distortion) at the same time and there is inter-modular issues. And it happens time after time when I audition horn loudspeakers. I have asked people about this phenomena but its seems though as I am alone in picking up such an acoustical / auditory behavior. The last horn loudspeaker I gave a chance was one from Avantgarde Acoustics.
It could be that since you are using a horn as a passive amplifier, if the compression driver has to much SPL, it "over shoots" the horn amplification. I just don't know, its a problem for me and I don't know how to solve it.
That's cool...we like what we like
Thx for sharing your preference and aversion...
I've been very happy with the transition to compression drivers...although I still keep full range electrostats running for certain types of listening..
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Old 6th December 2018, 06:23 PM   #27
olsond3 is offline olsond3  United States
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Join Date: Jul 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneminde View Post
@ mark100: That looks like a HQ measurement, the only problem is; I HATE horn loudspeakers. I can't deal with the throaty nature of them. Its odd because to me, I hear the source (driver) and reflected horn (distortion) at the same time and there is inter-modular issues. And it happens time after time when I audition horn loudspeakers. I have asked people about this phenomena but its seems though as I am alone in picking up such an acoustical / auditory behavior. The last horn loudspeaker I gave a chance was one from Avantgarde Acoustics.
It could be that since you are using a horn as a passive amplifier, if the compression driver has to much SPL, it "over shoots" the horn amplification. I just don't know, its a problem for me and I don't know how to solve it.
I agree, I always hear the deep horn artifacts. Lately I have found that a tweeter with a shallow and wide exponential waveguide that is somewhat matched in size and shape to the midrange cone produces a very nice match in sound at the transition between the drivers.
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Old 6th December 2018, 06:27 PM   #28
mark100 is offline mark100  United States
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneminde View Post
@ mark100: That looks like a HQ measurement, the only problem is; I HATE horn loudspeakers. I can't deal with the throaty nature of them. Its odd because to me, I hear the source (driver) and reflected horn (distortion) at the same time and there is inter-modular issues. And it happens time after time when I audition horn loudspeakers. I have asked people about this phenomena but its seems though as I am alone in picking up such an acoustical / auditory behavior. The last horn loudspeaker I gave a chance was one from Avantgarde Acoustics.
It could be that since you are using a horn as a passive amplifier, if the compression driver has to much SPL, it "over shoots" the horn amplification. I just don't know, its a problem for me and I don't know how to solve it.
That's cool...we like what we like
Thx for sharing your preference and aversion...
I've been very happy with the transition to compression drivers...although I still keep full range electrostats running for certain types of listening..
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Old 6th December 2018, 07:46 PM   #29
Oneminde is offline Oneminde
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Join Date: Jun 2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by olsond3 View Post
Maybe defining "laid back" and "forward" would help here. I assumed it was a change in high frequency magnitude frequency response. If so, changes in impedance vs frequency will change the frequency response, no?
Laid Back: A focus on midrange (500-2kHz), its warm, damped and mild. Its like playing the triangle instrument behind a piece of fabric. It also often affect the human voice in a similar way. Its very polite and forgiving. It will handle almost anything in the amp and source line. Some use the word "muddy" when they describe laid back, and it all depend on how much or how soft things sound.
Forward: Crisp, detailed, transparent with lots of air. Where focus is neutrality. No region is prioritized, the goal is to come as close as possible to real life. No coloration. The border between harsh and just right is close with this one, so not all loudspeakers and drivers that can be considered forward are pleasant. Also, sibilance or the broken "S" (usually in the 7-9kHz range) can be very prominent and dominant in a forward loudspeaker or driver, but can be fixed with a notch filter. The forward loudspeaker or analytical demand much more in terms of making it sound pleasing.
Impedance is AC resistance or resistance in the voicecoil. Nothing out of the ordinary here. It would be similar to placing a resistor on the input side to adjust the overall SPL of the driver in relationship to the other drivers used, and indeed, it does affect the overall acoustical behavior of the loudspeaker.
There is also "Acoustic impedance, which has the symbol Z, is the ratio of acoustic pressure p to acoustic volume flow U. So we define Z = p/U. Z usually varies strongly when you change the frequency. The acoustic impedance at a particular frequency indicates how much sound pressure is generated by a given air vibration at that frequency."

Hope this helps
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Old 6th December 2018, 07:50 PM   #30
Oneminde is offline Oneminde
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Join Date: Jun 2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by olsond3 View Post
I agree, I always hear the deep horn artifacts. Lately I have found that a tweeter with a shallow and wide exponential waveguide that is somewhat matched in size and shape to the midrange cone produces a very nice match in sound at the transition between the drivers.
Well, at least I am not alone .... lol and I too seem to enjoy waveguides. YG Acoustics has one of the nicest dispersion I've ever heard and it matches well to the (modified) ScansSpeak Illuminator midrange. Very pleasing role-off and transitions. I would not go as far as to say I don't like their "hybrid" tweeter, but I do miss some of the HF details which the Accuton Diamond offer.
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