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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Analytical or Laid Back
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Old 6th December 2018, 02:44 PM   #11
Oneminde is offline Oneminde
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madisonears View Post
Very nice presentation of data.

How do these measurements correlate to performance in the "triangle test"? Of course, crossover and implementation means a lot to overall speaker performance, but the triangle by itself might be a suitable test for the raw driver.

Peace,
Tom E
The triangle test came about gradually. The short story is that over the years while discovering that loudspeakers and especially the tweeters, sounded different. As I auditioned more and more loudspeakers, it seemed to me that one driver in particular either made the loudspeaker average or really stand out as clear, transparent and detailed - what many call analytical or forward. This led me to look for a common factor or a factor that I could trust would tell me how close or far the loudspeaker / tweeter is to sounding neutral and real. This turns out to be the triangle instrument, often used in classical music / orchestral. And behold, indeed it was a remarkable "simple" evaluation tool. Sibilance or the broken "S" is on 2nd place after the triangle, and 3rd we have the female voice as part of the test. Why ? well, as I mentioned, the triangle instrument is very unique in how it sounds. Some metal pipes have the same behavior and signature and I would say that most people can recognize it fairly easy. Then it becomes a matter of how accurately or not it sounds when played back - assuming that we have a good recording from the get go.

PS: It appears as each humans have a unique auditory system, rendering each triangle signature unique, but within a reasonable window of performance. So even if I can't translate to you personally how I hear it, we can arrive to the conclusion that it is the same or very similar instrument we are listening to, and in reference to IRL draw the conclusion, how similar the playback sound.

As with tube amplifiers which have elevated 2nd and 3rd harmonics, does amp's have a warm tone to them or we can say they are midrange forward. Knowing how does sound compared to a good Class A/B solid state amp which more often than not have a much cleaner and crisper sound, we know that the difference in large comes from the difference in regards to harmonic distortion or THD.

Having auditioned many loudspeakers and tweeters, remembering how they sound, what material they where made of and chasing down harmonic measurements, I started to see evidence for corelation between: How detailed and neutral it was compared to presence of harmonics. I know how the SB Beryllium, SEAS 22 TAF/G and Accuton Diamond sound like and so far (without auditioning the Viawave tweeter which I will do) the Accuton Diamond and SB Beryllium are the only two who, with a reasonable amount of "artificial" playback, renders the triangle instrument very nicely.

Real life performance is difficult as we all know and is one of the reasons we actually audition and/or design loudspeakers and I will assume it is because we want to come close to experience the musical recording as if we are actually there when the musicians are playing and singing.

Regarding loudspeakers and how the drivers perform in relationship to choices made for the cabinet and filter, I would imagine it matters yes. As an example. The accuton diamond in my case was heard through some Marten loudspeakers, so Tidal which use the same tweeter might have done a better or worse job, but for now, I can't say one or the other is doing better or worse and can only say that the Accuton diamond is in its own league of tweeters and in regards to the triangle instrument . In order to balance out things, YG Acoustics Hailey 1.2 does a much better job for everything els compared to Marten, but lacked the finest details in the top end which the Marten could since it used the diamond tweeter.

I hope this answers your question
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Old 6th December 2018, 02:47 PM   #12
Oneminde is offline Oneminde
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Space Egg Corp View Post
.In terms of tweeter problems generally, in the 80% of speakers you mention ... my personal experience says it is simply the electrolytic capacitor in those 80% that is often the main culprit !

t.S.E.c.
I am not qualified to argue for or against electrolytic caps, but if I understand you correctly, you are saying the solid electrolytic caps or PP have more details to them or they are more neutral and true to the music ?
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Old 6th December 2018, 02:53 PM   #13
Oneminde is offline Oneminde
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olsond3 View Post
Thank you for posting the excellent tweeter data. Perfectly presented with identical scales just like a dream. I can now confidently order an SB dome.
That SB is a good compromise between metal dome and diamond dome. You should not regret it. For a more budget oriented build, the SEAS 22TAF/G is a no brainer as well
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Old 6th December 2018, 03:03 PM   #14
Oneminde is offline Oneminde
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Space Egg Corp View Post
speculating that the 80% of "laid back" designs may well have poor capacitors fitted. <snip>
I am using that entire argument in my reply because, you might be on to something. Does capacitors affect the signal ? ... yes, yes it does. There's been multiple tests on different types of capacitors where the goal was to look for neutrality or if the cap modulated or colored the signal. Not how it sounds, but if it does something unwanted to the signal, and the evidence are there. As you mentioned earlier, you replaced the caps in does B&W and experienced a pleasant and positive change. Good for you.

The question is then: Why does the market contain so many "fluffy" and laid back loudspeakers if its unnatural ?
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Old 6th December 2018, 04:11 PM   #15
marco_gea is offline marco_gea  Italy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneminde View Post

There are generally speaking, 4 types of tweeters:
- Soft Dome
- Hard Dome
- Ribbon or Foil
- Plasma.
Have you ever listened to / considered horn-loaded metal ring radiators?

(E.g., like these)

In my experience, nothing touches them in terms of accurate reproduction of high-frequencies and transients - provided that they are crossed over properly to only operate in the range where they are "comfortable" (usually > 6 - 8 kHz, depending on the size of the diaphragm and horn).
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Old 6th December 2018, 04:41 PM   #16
Oneminde is offline Oneminde
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Regarding horn super tweeters, not that I am aware of. Might have listened to one or two without paying attention in the 90's. No matter, I would need to do so now that I consciously am working on loudspeakers.

Any particular recommendations which you have personal experience with ?
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Old 6th December 2018, 04:59 PM   #17
Speaker Dude is offline Speaker Dude  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boden View Post
Take 2 physically identical dome tweeters. One has a, say 28 mm softdome, the other a 28mm titanium.

Suppose the tweeter is part of a well designed 3 way system.

Optimize the hi-pass sections of the tweeter filter in such a way that these sections, loaded by the tweeter, yield identical acoustic transfer functions/output.

You will not be able to distinguish between the tweeters.

Forget about THD or capacitors, it is the on-axis and off-axis behaviour of the entire hi-pass section.

Laid back is usually the result of a recessed power response/off axis dip in the mids, not the tweeter.
I have found this to be true for 3-way speakers. Laid back seems to be around the 800Hz - 3KHz range. give or take.
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Old 6th December 2018, 05:11 PM   #18
olsond3 is offline olsond3  United States
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From what I know about driver design, mind you, never having designed one, I assume the inductance of the voice coil is carefully adjusted so as to roll off the on axis high frequency response of the tweeter just as its response starts to rise due to high frequency beaming. Of course this results in a rolled off power response. Varying values of this inductance relative to the tweeter diameter may be the "Laid back" factor.
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Old 6th December 2018, 05:12 PM   #19
Oneminde is offline Oneminde
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@ Speaker Dude: Midrange is 500-2kHz, so that would fit your area. And its interesting to see comments regarding capacitor material. I know for a fact that the SEAS tweeter used in the PMC Twenty5 series sound rather okay and PMC use MKP caps. Its more distinct in its Fr transition than B&W Diamond, Accuton ceramic / diamond etc, so I would call the SEAS too forward, but would not have any issues incorporating it together with a capacitors that suits it. Adjust how laid back or forward it is with the capacitors is indeed an attractive situation.

Last edited by Oneminde; 6th December 2018 at 05:19 PM.
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Old 6th December 2018, 05:18 PM   #20
Oneminde is offline Oneminde
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olsond3 View Post
From what I know about driver design, mind you, never having designed one, I assume the inductance of the voice coil is carefully adjusted so as to roll off the on axis high frequency response of the tweeter just as its response starts to rise due to high frequency beaming. Of course this results in a rolled off power response. Varying values of this inductance relative to the tweeter diameter may be the "Laid back" factor.
A power factor you say... hmm. How do you academically connect impedance and acoustical performance ? I come from the Fr response and harmonics perspective and would love to hear more about yours. Impedance or damping do indeed change how much power can be delivered from the amplifier, but that is an SPL aspect. Like when I adjust the volume, the SPL goes up and down, but that does not affect the overall acoustical performance in terms of laid back or forward - well, until you get uncomfortably loud and cone breakup is present further down in its Fr band, but that is SPL distortion ... Two different things
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