I personally use these, high-passed at 6kHz (12dB/oct) and driven by a class A MOS-FET amplifier.
Under those conditions, they sound very, very "real" to me.
At the same time, though, they are very revealing and won't tolerate being "abused".
I.e., if fed lower frequencies, or driven by amps that are "noisy" in the ultra-high frequencies (like many class D, and even some class AB amps), they can easily be made to sound "harsh" and "spitty".
Instead, under the same "abusive" conditions, a soft-dome tweeter, say, will sound "smoother" and more "laid back", leading many to conclude (wrongly, I would say) that the soft domes are therefore "better"...
@ marco_gea: Does tweeters has a heft price attached to them and they better deliver 
You are absolutely correct in that source or amp issues are real and soft domes are indeed more forgiving, that is their supreme advantage. In a way, they hide the reality, even perhaps make your amplifier sound better than it is. I know this first hand, amps do impact how a loudspeaker sound and its not a minor part either.
Therefore, as some say, upgrade your amplifier, DAC, source material (low quality mp3 -> CDA/FLAC) before you upgrade your loudspeakers and you might experience a pleasant change ... or as it has been indicated in this thread, change caps.
You are absolutely correct in that source or amp issues are real and soft domes are indeed more forgiving, that is their supreme advantage. In a way, they hide the reality, even perhaps make your amplifier sound better than it is. I know this first hand, amps do impact how a loudspeaker sound and its not a minor part either.
Therefore, as some say, upgrade your amplifier, DAC, source material (low quality mp3 -> CDA/FLAC) before you upgrade your loudspeakers and you might experience a pleasant change ... or as it has been indicated in this thread, change caps.
Interesting thread.
Since I made the switch from typical home audio designs to compression drivers, i always find myself wondering if I've been leaving any HF/VHF excellence on the table.
I get that comparing dispersion is apples to oranges, but i always wonder about distortion, etc.
Looking at the distortion plots on the the various drivers (very nice presentation BTW),
I don't see anything that clearly looks better than what I've been measuring with a bms 4594HE..
or at least i don't think so...here's a plot at 1/48th ...
Since I made the switch from typical home audio designs to compression drivers, i always find myself wondering if I've been leaving any HF/VHF excellence on the table.
I get that comparing dispersion is apples to oranges, but i always wonder about distortion, etc.
Looking at the distortion plots on the the various drivers (very nice presentation BTW),
I don't see anything that clearly looks better than what I've been measuring with a bms 4594HE..
or at least i don't think so...here's a plot at 1/48th ...
Attachments
@ mark100: That looks like a HQ measurement, the only problem is; I HATE horn loudspeakers. I can't deal with the throaty nature of them. Its odd because to me, I hear the source (driver) and reflected horn (distortion) at the same time and there is inter-modular issues. And it happens time after time when I audition horn loudspeakers. I have asked people about this phenomena but its seems though as I am alone in picking up such an acoustical / auditory behavior. The last horn loudspeaker I gave a chance was one from Avantgarde Acoustics.
It could be that since you are using a horn as a passive amplifier, if the compression driver has to much SPL, it "over shoots" the horn amplification. I just don't know, its a problem for me and I don't know how to solve it.
It could be that since you are using a horn as a passive amplifier, if the compression driver has to much SPL, it "over shoots" the horn amplification. I just don't know, its a problem for me and I don't know how to solve it.
A power factor you say... hmm. How do you academically connect impedance and acoustical performance ? I come from the Fr response and harmonics perspective and would love to hear more about yours. Impedance or damping do indeed change how much power can be delivered from the amplifier, but that is an SPL aspect. Like when I adjust the volume, the SPL goes up and down, but that does not affect the overall acoustical performance in terms of laid back or forward - well, until you get uncomfortably loud and cone breakup is present further down in its Fr band, but that is SPL distortion ... Two different things
Maybe defining "laid back" and "forward" would help here. I assumed it was a change in high frequency magnitude frequency response. If so, changes in impedance vs frequency will change the frequency response, no?
That's cool...we like what we like
Thx for sharing your preference and aversion...
I've been very happy with the transition to compression drivers...although I still keep full range electrostats running for certain types of listening..
I agree, I always hear the deep horn artifacts. Lately I have found that a tweeter with a shallow and wide exponential waveguide that is somewhat matched in size and shape to the midrange cone produces a very nice match in sound at the transition between the drivers.
That's cool...we like what we like
Thx for sharing your preference and aversion...
I've been very happy with the transition to compression drivers...although I still keep full range electrostats running for certain types of listening..
Laid Back: A focus on midrange (500-2kHz), its warm, damped and mild. Its like playing the triangle instrument behind a piece of fabric. It also often affect the human voice in a similar way. Its very polite and forgiving. It will handle almost anything in the amp and source line. Some use the word "muddy" when they describe laid back, and it all depend on how much or how soft things sound.
Forward: Crisp, detailed, transparent with lots of air. Where focus is neutrality. No region is prioritized, the goal is to come as close as possible to real life. No coloration. The border between harsh and just right is close with this one, so not all loudspeakers and drivers that can be considered forward are pleasant. Also, sibilance or the broken "S" (usually in the 7-9kHz range) can be very prominent and dominant in a forward loudspeaker or driver, but can be fixed with a notch filter. The forward loudspeaker or analytical demand much more in terms of making it sound pleasing.
Impedance is AC resistance or resistance in the voicecoil. Nothing out of the ordinary here. It would be similar to placing a resistor on the input side to adjust the overall SPL of the driver in relationship to the other drivers used, and indeed, it does affect the overall acoustical behavior of the loudspeaker.
There is also "Acoustic impedance, which has the symbol Z, is the ratio of acoustic pressure p to acoustic volume flow U. So we define Z = p/U. Z usually varies strongly when you change the frequency. The acoustic impedance at a particular frequency indicates how much sound pressure is generated by a given air vibration at that frequency."
Hope this helps
Well, at least I am not alone .... lol and I too seem to enjoy waveguides. YG Acoustics has one of the nicest dispersion I've ever heard and it matches well to the (modified) ScansSpeak Illuminator midrange. Very pleasing role-off and transitions. I would not go as far as to say I don't like their "hybrid" tweeter, but I do miss some of the HF details which the Accuton Diamond offer.
They told me it was the pinacle of accoustics & then sold me duff capacitors !
" The question is then: Why does the market contain so many "fluffy" and laid back loudspeakers if its unnatural ? "
Why does Hollywood produce so many $4!7 fluffy, laid back & un-natural movies ?
THEY SELL !
Natural ... Un-natural ... Who cares ! ? ...
... We want romance, LOUDNESS, un-fatiguing, accuracy, big bottoms ! ...
... & all in 90-mins for $10 Bucks including popcorn !
Keep under the
radar !
As they say ... Stack 'em high & sell 'em CHEAP !
Si.
t.S.E.c
.
" The question is then: Why does the market contain so many "fluffy" and laid back loudspeakers if its unnatural ? "
Why does Hollywood produce so many $4!7 fluffy, laid back & un-natural movies ?
THEY SELL !
Natural ... Un-natural ... Who cares ! ? ...
... We want romance, LOUDNESS, un-fatiguing, accuracy, big bottoms ! ...
... & all in 90-mins for $10 Bucks including popcorn !
Keep under the
radar !As they say ... Stack 'em high & sell 'em CHEAP !
Si.
t.S.E.c
.
mark100: All I can say is; I am happy for you that you've found something that works and you are right, we like what we like. I am just glad my reference sound do exist. For me, I've heard traces of the loudspeaker I want, but it does not exist yet, that is why I've transitioned into becoming a loudspeaker engineer so I can develop it myself
.
Hi again Oneminde
Over the 40 years I've been slingin' wood glue ( I started early BTW ) ...
... I only really 1st owned a pair of commercially made loudspeakers a couple of years ago !
A pair of JBL studio monitors, now VERY HEAVILY modded with new ...
... woofers, capacitors & inductors, Speakon(TM) sockets & wiring + tweeter mods. inc. mini DIY diffuser.
The only original JBL parts are really only the cabinet & core tweeter motor !
What I have noticed though, I think, with the 80% you mentioned earlier ...
... is a slow but consistent shift towards generally more " laid back " commercial loudspeakers.
I think it is because the sources the 80% listen to, have shifted from analog to digital.
Pre Millennium sources could include, sometimes rather dull sounding tape players/recorders ...
... & LPs played on cheap MM carts. which often had a rather dull sound caused by cable capacitance etc.
Of course the 80% don't understand how to record a cassette tape properly, or use decent phono input wiring !
If the 80% of loudspeakers out there then, were not at least a bit 'bright', who'd buy 'em ?
Now, perhaps the opposite is true, bright sources dominate the 80% market.
Cellphones, iPods etc. all playing poor 'bright' MP3s through 'tinny' DAC outputs ...
... harsh sounding CD players, computer soundcards, DVD sound outputs etc. etc.
All more often than not, the total opposite to their cheap source cousins 20 years ago.
Of course the 20% are still doing whatever they want ...
... which often involves a big phat dollop of hi-end audiophile 'coloration on demand' !!
Go on solder slingers ... Fry
me for even suggesting such heresy !
Si.
t.S.E.c
.
Hi again Oneminde
Over the 40 years I've been slingin' wood glue ( I started early BTW ) ...
... I only really 1st owned a pair of commercially made loudspeakers a couple of years ago !
A pair of JBL studio monitors, now VERY HEAVILY modded with new ...
... woofers, capacitors & inductors, Speakon(TM) sockets & wiring + tweeter mods. inc. mini DIY diffuser.
The only original JBL parts are really only the cabinet & core tweeter motor !
What I have noticed though, I think, with the 80% you mentioned earlier ...
... is a slow but consistent shift towards generally more " laid back " commercial loudspeakers.
I think it is because the sources the 80% listen to, have shifted from analog to digital.
Pre Millennium sources could include, sometimes rather dull sounding tape players/recorders ...
... & LPs played on cheap MM carts. which often had a rather dull sound caused by cable capacitance etc.
Of course the 80% don't understand how to record a cassette tape properly, or use decent phono input wiring !
If the 80% of loudspeakers out there then, were not at least a bit 'bright', who'd buy 'em ?
Now, perhaps the opposite is true, bright sources dominate the 80% market.
Cellphones, iPods etc. all playing poor 'bright' MP3s through 'tinny' DAC outputs ...
... harsh sounding CD players, computer soundcards, DVD sound outputs etc. etc.
All more often than not, the total opposite to their cheap source cousins 20 years ago.
Of course the 20% are still doing whatever they want ...
... which often involves a big phat dollop of hi-end audiophile 'coloration on demand' !!
Go on solder slingers ... Fry
me for even suggesting such heresy ! Si.
t.S.E.c
.
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@ t.S.E.c: As for me, I discovered clarity through B&W 802 back when they used Al tweeters, that would be 1998. Many eons later and not having the opportunity to own a pair of nicely made loudspeakers, this is changing. I've spent 4-5 years or so actively researching, reading books, articles, spending time - some wasted - in forums, driving hundreds of miles to listen to expensive stuff like Marten, Focal, YG Acoustics, debated with retailers and producers and so on. And it saddens me to conclude with; High-end is one of the most cost and price inflated products on the market. While it is a challenge to engineer good loudspeakers and matching drivers and x-over, its not even close to the hyped price most charge because they actually managed to engineer something that passed the D grade: "Congratulations for doing what you should, now here is a trophy, so stop bothering me (you bastard)" ... LMAO
The downside of being able to hear up to 18kHz at the age of 43 is how full of **** there is and I am not happy about it. But most get away whit it because A. People are non the wiser. B. For something to be good it must be expensive (false) and C. Most engineers are lazy and design something because it sells. All of that pisses me off, even if I am fully aware of the fact that there is very little I can do about it. But little does not mean nothing.
And in regards to tweeters. In stark contrast to Beryllium, Diamond and Al foil. One tweeter that managed to play its way up to my top selection is the Accuton C25-6-158 (via the Marten Heritage Mile 5) too bad Marten is using Mundorf Silver/Gold in Oil across the board and Qtc 0.5 which is over damping the midrange and woofer. I think this tweeter can shine brighter than it did. The reason this tweeter sailed up to be a top contender; Silky smooth and effortless rendition. No Sibilance and never in your face, just wonderful, even if it is a laid back tweeter, I love it. It had some of the same characteristics B&W diamond. But also B&W use oil capacitors which effectively make them electrolytic.
Streaming music should only be done when you are lazy, have it in the background or want to check out an album before you go out and buy the CD/FLAC. I use Spotify, but only for the reasons I mentioned. I could go on about things, but this is enough ranting for one day ..
Oneminde
The downside of being able to hear up to 18kHz at the age of 43 is how full of **** there is and I am not happy about it. But most get away whit it because A. People are non the wiser. B. For something to be good it must be expensive (false) and C. Most engineers are lazy and design something because it sells. All of that pisses me off, even if I am fully aware of the fact that there is very little I can do about it. But little does not mean nothing.
And in regards to tweeters. In stark contrast to Beryllium, Diamond and Al foil. One tweeter that managed to play its way up to my top selection is the Accuton C25-6-158 (via the Marten Heritage Mile 5) too bad Marten is using Mundorf Silver/Gold in Oil across the board and Qtc 0.5 which is over damping the midrange and woofer. I think this tweeter can shine brighter than it did. The reason this tweeter sailed up to be a top contender; Silky smooth and effortless rendition. No Sibilance and never in your face, just wonderful, even if it is a laid back tweeter, I love it. It had some of the same characteristics B&W diamond. But also B&W use oil capacitors which effectively make them electrolytic.
Streaming music should only be done when you are lazy, have it in the background or want to check out an album before you go out and buy the CD/FLAC. I use Spotify, but only for the reasons I mentioned. I could go on about things, but this is enough ranting for one day ..
Oneminde
Don't confuse 'forward' in speaker term with 'forward' in amplifier or general term. Speaker is supposed to be flat, and with the same speaker sound can still be 'forward' or not.
'Forward' in amplification is often related with the position of the singer/vocal in soundstage. 'Forward' or 'In-your-face' is mainly the effect of second order distortion, so it IS coloration and not neutral.
Your 'forward' description in loudspeaker drivers OTOH seems to be positive. Assuming that the speaker frequency response is flat, this seems to be related with the drivers capability to reproduce (HF) details. To be able to do so, the cone must be rigid and light. Hence the metal or diamond cone materials you might prefer. The distortion of such material is very disturbing, so when not well designed, the border between 'harsh' and 'just right' is close as you said.
I should add here that the price of that HF details is very high, while it's importance is subjectively low. There are more to a good speaker than just ability to portray (HF) details.
Interesting thread.
I'm going to disagree with the above. When I was introduced to SET amps back in '85 I found them shocking in their clean, crisp sound. So much cleaner than anything I'd heard from solid state. And yet they measured with higher THD.There is currently a thread and test about hearing distortion from tubes. While it can be done on sine waves, on music it's much harder. Tweeters could be the same, unless you are crossing low, aren't those harmonics going to way up high and hard to hear?
@ johnego: If we agree that most loudspeakers (or tweeters) are very polite, gentle and forgiving and this is considered the norm, then the brighter ones are "adding" or "adjusting" the acoustical performance in such a way that instrumental and vocal performance is more separated, more neutral and true to the recording. And you are right, a good loudspeaker should be as flat as possible over its useful frequency band. Not only neutral as in flat but also - very important - neutral in terms of sounding natural or realistic.
See video for clarification; YouTube
That might be so, that the 2nd is contributing to the "in your face" experience when it comes to drivers, but if that is the case, how come even order (2,4,6 harmonics) in tube amps are the reason they are pleasant to listen to (12AX7) ?
See video for clarification; YouTube
1. This might be due to even order harmonics which I like, but since I don't like the warmish tone tube amps also contribute with, there is a conflict. But its simple. A Russian audio engineer recreated the 12AX7 tube via transistors and did a hell of a good job. You get the SS clarity and the 12AX7 even order harmonics. I like that.Interesting thread.
There is currently a thread and test about hearing distortion from tubes. While it can be done on sine waves, on music it's much harder. Tweeters could be the same, unless you are crossing low, aren't those harmonics going to way up high and hard to hear?
2. If I understand you correctly, and correct me if I am wrong. If we look at the drivers I included in the original post, harmonic distortion is vastly different between them. Some have more odd and some have more even. Some have harmonics returning as you go higher in Fr and some gets lower. But assume we look at one that have less and less as the Fr increase, are you asking of crossing such a tweeter higher up, will be beneficial in terms of getting a cleaner result ?
Paper cone is the norm, yes. Ceramic, fiberglass and the like are more expensive but they don't just add something good but something bad too (which does not exist in the recording).
Yes. My favorite word is 'phase'. There is no simple criteria to judge if X is more realistic than Y when both are not. What you think is more realistic can be the opposite for others when they have different expectation for reality. Extreme example is enjoyment: "I enjoy listening to music live or in studios, why don't I have that enjoyment listening through your perfect speaker?" (And your speaker will be considered unrealistic no matter how many similarities it has with studio speakers).
Why do you think that the even order harmonics are the things responsible for what you like?? There are many reasons why tube amps are pleasant to listen to.
If the question is: "Which one is close to reality, the highly distorted tube amp or the clinically low distortion solid state?" then there is no easy answer. Everyone may have their own criteria but for sure none is close to reality.
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