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The Preference for Direct Radiators
The Preference for Direct Radiators
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Old 9th January 2019, 06:25 AM   #251
FoLLgoTT is offline FoLLgoTT  Germany
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Originally Posted by DualTriode View Post
I do not want to be crabby for 2019.
No problem. I've been always a strong supporter of a well defined glossary. I will try to use the correct words in the future. Thanks.
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Old 9th January 2019, 06:56 AM   #252
silverprout is offline silverprout  France
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Originally Posted by mayhem13 View Post
Too much being spoken about here and not taking into account the room/space.......
A point source listening session in the outer space, as always
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Old 15th January 2019, 03:03 PM   #253
DualTriode is offline DualTriode  United States
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Originally Posted by mayhem13 View Post
Too much being spoken about here and not taking into account the room/space.......
Audio Musings by Sean Olive: The Harman International Reference Listening Room

JBL "standard" space
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Old 23rd January 2019, 05:25 AM   #254
Quip is offline Quip
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Click the image to open in full size.

Since there was some discussion over Charles Sprinkle's comments on elliptical Revel-style waveguides vs the M2 Imaging Control waveguide (due to the AVS blind test) in both this thread and the M2 thread, thought I'd link the polars of the Kali LP-6.

Its Charles' latest implementation of the elliptical waveguide. This map was generated from the CLF data that Kali supplied from independent measurements. I also generated polars for a few comparable Genelec speakers using their CLF data. Note that the measuring distances were different (8m for Kali, and 1.6m for Genelec). Red represents -5dB scale. White line represents -6dB from on-axis SPL at that frequency.

Last edited by Quip; 23rd January 2019 at 05:41 AM.
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Old 14th March 2019, 10:00 AM   #255
Omholt is offline Omholt  Norway
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The Preference for Direct Radiators
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Originally Posted by DualTriode View Post
Very poorly acoustically treated IMO. One has to wonder how much it has effected the results of Harman.

I also find the discussion a bit strange without taking the room into account. You can achieve awesome imaging with almost any speaker if the room is treated in the needed matter.

And you can also get spaciousness from a speaker with high directivity with the appropriate treatment.

If one is stuck without being able to treat the room, the placement and room dimensions will decide much of the result besides the dispersion pattern of the speakers.

I think people are giving the M2 vs Salon listening session too much credit. In a different environment and perhaps with different listeners or music material the result could have been different.

Besides, quick listening sessions doesn't necessarily give the same result as listening over time. I've discovered that many times when AB testing no side wall treatments vs treated side walls. No side walls treatment (as long as the speaker has decent power response) will almost always sound most impressive the first few seconds.
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Old 14th March 2019, 01:11 PM   #256
Cask05 is offline Cask05  United States
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Originally Posted by Omholt View Post
Very poorly acoustically treated IMO. One has to wonder how much it has affected the results of Harman...

...Besides, quick listening sessions doesn't necessarily give the same result as listening over time. I've discovered that many times when AB testing no side wall treatments vs treated side walls. No side walls treatment (as long as the speaker has decent power response) will almost always sound most impressive the first few seconds.
A basic argument (or problem) of hi-fi reproduction is deciding what sounds better, and this problem revolves around the participants accepting some sort of testing, e.g., ABX, etc. I don't want to dredge up that argument, but in trying to address the arguments so that all sides might see resolution, I find that the comment above about "quick listening sessions" and "side wall treatments" actually are key.

Recently, I put together a thread on the subject of subconscious effects of low phase growth loudspeakers in rooms with controlled early reflections. This subconscious listening effect emerged after first controlling room reflections, and then taking out sources of phase growth within loudspeakers via use of first-order crossover filters and even eliminating some low pass filters altogether, like Danley has done with the SH-50, and others have also done (more on that subject in the linked thread). Bjorn has hit a subject that more-or-less negates the premise of this thread's title, IMO.

Based on listener results of the premise of the thread I think that few people caught that the Revel Salon 2 probably has better vertical directivity control over a wider bandwidth than the JBL M2--especially below 800 Hz. (I realized this after staring at a fair amount of EASE data posted online of comparable direct-radiating and horn-loaded loudspeakers of these configurations.)

Unless the listening room in which the two loudspeakers were placed had controlled for these in-room reflections in order for the participants to hear the differences in directivity and phase coherence of the two models (and had made some changes in the recordings/genres used to show off the differences), I don't believe that the test as performed did much but confirm that higher directivity across a wider bandwidth is preferred in rooms having little to no early reflection control. That is evident in spades for full-range directivity control in both axes (hor, vert) like the SH-50, the K-402-MEH, and the Jubilee. Once measures are taken to recover the phase coherence of these loudspeakers, and are listened to in rooms having good early reflection control, the listening impression differences become pronounced, in my experience. I find that it's a very non-linear scale of subjective/subconscious improvement sound quality vs. directivity control + loudspeaker phase coherence + control of early in-room reflections.

Chris

Last edited by Cask05; 14th March 2019 at 01:38 PM.
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Old 14th March 2019, 03:24 PM   #257
youknowyou is offline youknowyou  Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omholt View Post
Very poorly acoustically treated IMO. One has to wonder how much it has effected the results of Harman.

I also find the discussion a bit strange without taking the room into account. You can achieve awesome imaging with almost any speaker if the room is treated in the needed matter.

And you can also get spaciousness from a speaker with high directivity with the appropriate treatment.

If one is stuck without being able to treat the room, the placement and room dimensions will decide much of the result besides the dispersion pattern of the speakers.

I think people are giving the M2 vs Salon listening session too much credit. In a different environment and perhaps with different listeners or music material the result could have been different.

Besides, quick listening sessions doesn't necessarily give the same result as listening over time. I've discovered that many times when AB testing no side wall treatments vs treated side walls. No side walls treatment (as long as the speaker has decent power response) will almost always sound most impressive the first few seconds.
couldnt agree more on all points

Harman "test" are flawed by the room. Floyd papers about room acoustic is also flawed by their room.
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Old 16th March 2019, 12:27 AM   #258
wesayso is offline wesayso  Netherlands
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cask05 View Post
A basic argument (or problem) of hi-fi reproduction is deciding what sounds better, and this problem revolves around the participants accepting some sort of testing, e.g., ABX, etc. I don't want to dredge up that argument, but in trying to address the arguments so that all sides might see resolution, I find that the comment above about "quick listening sessions" and "side wall treatments" actually are key.

Recently, I put together a thread on the subject of subconscious effects of low phase growth loudspeakers in rooms with controlled early reflections. This subconscious listening effect emerged after first controlling room reflections, and then taking out sources of phase growth within loudspeakers via use of first-order crossover filters and even eliminating some low pass filters altogether, like Danley has done with the SH-50, and others have also done (more on that subject in the linked thread). Bjorn has hit a subject that more-or-less negates the premise of this thread's title, IMO.

Based on listener results of the premise of the thread I think that few people caught that the Revel Salon 2 probably has better vertical directivity control over a wider bandwidth than the JBL M2--especially below 800 Hz. (I realized this after staring at a fair amount of EASE data posted online of comparable direct-radiating and horn-loaded loudspeakers of these configurations.)

Unless the listening room in which the two loudspeakers were placed had controlled for these in-room reflections in order for the participants to hear the differences in directivity and phase coherence of the two models (and had made some changes in the recordings/genres used to show off the differences), I don't believe that the test as performed did much but confirm that higher directivity across a wider bandwidth is preferred in rooms having little to no early reflection control. That is evident in spades for full-range directivity control in both axes (hor, vert) like the SH-50, the K-402-MEH, and the Jubilee. Once measures are taken to recover the phase coherence of these loudspeakers, and are listened to in rooms having good early reflection control, the listening impression differences become pronounced, in my experience. I find that it's a very non-linear scale of subjective/subconscious improvement sound quality vs. directivity control + loudspeaker phase coherence + control of early in-room reflections.

Chris
Thanks Chris for a link to your thread about the subconscious effects of low phase growth. A good read!
Even though I don't use horns (or crossovers), it has been my personal quest to find my own opinion on that subject a few years ago. It took quite a bit of work, measurements, room treatment and a dose of DSP to get me there. I've tried to describe its result many times.

I guess the best testament to its real virtues are the reviews from a few friendly listeners, most of those were from fellow forum members, I've linked to in my first post of what has become a huge thread.
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Old 16th March 2019, 01:57 AM   #259
Patrick Bateman is offline Patrick Bateman  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quip View Post
Click the image to open in full size.

Since there was some discussion over Charles Sprinkle's comments on elliptical Revel-style waveguides vs the M2 Imaging Control waveguide (due to the AVS blind test) in both this thread and the M2 thread, thought I'd link the polars of the Kali LP-6.

Its Charles' latest implementation of the elliptical waveguide. This map was generated from the CLF data that Kali supplied from independent measurements. I also generated polars for a few comparable Genelec speakers using their CLF data. Note that the measuring distances were different (8m for Kali, and 1.6m for Genelec). Red represents -5dB scale. White line represents -6dB from on-axis SPL at that frequency.

Those horizontal polars are REALLY nice. The Genelec coaxial is clearly better , but it also costs twelve(!) times as much.

I have some LP6s here, I really need to hook them up and give them a listen. I bought them and measured them, then Bill Waslo's CoSynes came up for sale and I wound up using those instead.

Here's my measurement of the LP6, and my Behringers that it replaced, which are Genelec clones:

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

EDIT: if you look at my measurements of the Kali LP6, you'll see a 'blip' at 1800Hz. Your horizontal measurement doesn't show this 'blip', but it IS there in the vertical measurement. That seems to beg the question "what's the optimum listening axis of the LP6?" My measurements seem to indicate that the LP6 is finicky about the vertical axis.

Last edited by Patrick Bateman; 16th March 2019 at 02:03 AM.
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Old 16th March 2019, 02:16 AM   #260
plasnu is offline plasnu  United States
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Did you guys read the pdf, and saying the JBL room is flawed?

It would be somewhat questionable for someone that they do not control the first reflection, but overall, it is a pretty reasonable room for emulating average consumer listening rooms, imo.

Olive Munich AES Presentation on Harman Reference Room - Google Slides
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