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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Comparison of 'Xbush Sphere synergy horn', versus 'Balls of Prestige'.
Comparison of 'Xbush Sphere synergy horn', versus 'Balls of Prestige'.
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Old 6th November 2018, 04:34 PM   #21
xrk971 is offline xrk971  United States
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Comparison of 'Xbush Sphere synergy horn', versus 'Balls of Prestige'.
Great comparison, thanks for taking the time to do this.
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Old 6th November 2018, 05:44 PM   #22
bushmeister is offline bushmeister
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My pleasure X!
After all it was your simulations and guidance that helped give birth to the x-bush speakers!

I should say I made another 4 way as one of my first complex builds and this speaker is now relegated to multichannel use only in my surround sound set up as it doesn't hold a candle to either of these set ups!
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Old 6th November 2018, 06:13 PM   #23
bushmeister is offline bushmeister
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Originally Posted by Juhazi View Post
My personal experience is similar to bushmeister! I have heard many highly directive speakers like large synergys and 15" coaxials, but I prefer the sound that good low-directivity multiway speakers give in a normal living room.

My sound preference comes from listening to acoustic live performances and I am rather critical of the timbre of piano, ac. guitar, violin etc. but not interested in sharp imaging. I understand that many people like sharp imaging which reveals all tricks done in recording and mixing studio for pop and similar "born in studio" music.

I have read the thread M2 vs. Revel Salon too, and isn't it funny that Toole said that he still has Salon2's at home, because he likes the sound so much!

Listening and enjoying music is the main goal for hifi speakers, not certain "ideal" technical performance!
Couldn't have said it better myself - but didn't think I would be saying it a year ago at all!!!
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Old 6th November 2018, 07:06 PM   #24
xrk971 is offline xrk971  United States
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Comparison of 'Xbush Sphere synergy horn', versus 'Balls of Prestige'.
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Originally Posted by bushmeister View Post
My pleasure X!
After all it was your simulations and guidance that helped give birth to the x-bush speakers!

I should say I made another 4 way as one of my first complex builds and this speaker is now relegated to multichannel use only in my surround sound set up as it doesn't hold a candle to either of these set ups!
Sorry, wasn’t clear which speaker is related to multichannel and which doesn’t hold a candle? Your latest 4 way is now better than spheroid 4-way? Also, is it 4-way because of a sub somewhere because I only see 3 drivers?
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Old 6th November 2018, 07:17 PM   #25
bushmeister is offline bushmeister
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Originally Posted by xrk971 View Post
Sorry, wasn’t clear which speaker is related to multichannel and which doesn’t hold a candle? Your latest 4 way is now better than spheroid 4-way? Also, is it 4-way because of a sub somewhere because I only see 3 drivers?
Sorry that is a photo of my first complex speaker build (built 5 years ago!) a 3-way box speaker supplemented with multiple subs in the room - therefore making it a four way.

It is very good - 12MU mid, SB acoustic ring radiator and SS 8" woofer - but is not as good as either the synergy or the 4 way sphere build.

It does fine as the mains in my multiway cinema set up, but is not as good as my other creations!
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Old 6th November 2018, 07:29 PM   #26
wesayso is offline wesayso  Netherlands
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Great idea to take the time and do this comparison, bushmeister!

Wouldn't it be fun to find some clues in the measurements though? I'd be all over the graphs to see if there's something to be learned from it .
I love the ring radiators though. And found, from my own fiddling with my arrays that the part above 6-7 KHz has much more influence on imaging precision and perception than I used to think.

If you ask me, the BBC dip, has much more to do with our 2 ears than anything else. The cross talk these ears bring is a big factor (i.m.h.o.) in how we perceive the stage. Reflections can help soften the perceived cross talk out in a room and give a better 3D presentation as a result.
I'm not done experimenting with that cross talk problem, as it brings great rewards in my humble opinion. I have kind of a BBC dip, but only on phantom centre material. Not on the side panned sounds. One of the best moves I've ever done. (mid/side EQ)

I've also come to realise the room "answer" is one of the bigger things that sway's us from the apparent frequency response as measured. After absorbing first reflection points I started to miss out on the envelopment feel and thrill factor. I brought it back in a virtual way.
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Old 6th November 2018, 07:42 PM   #27
bushmeister is offline bushmeister
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Great insights wesayso! I knew you would have a view on it all.

Given your system has a fairly wide but well controlled dispersion - and of course the luxury of no floor/ceiling bounce - I knew you would be able to add to the discussion!

I didn't save any of my measurements as there were so many trying to get the listening field comparable between the two, and to be honest I wanted to really concentrate on which speaker sounded best without analyzing loads of REW measurements - in hindsight - I should have just hit save a few times!

Perhaps when I get some time off I will drag the synergies back into my listening room. But for now - I am going to pour myself a good single malt and spin some vinyl!
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Old 6th November 2018, 07:45 PM   #28
wesayso is offline wesayso  Netherlands
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Well deserved! Enjoy the music and the malt!
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Old 6th November 2018, 09:06 PM   #29
bwaslo is offline bwaslo  United States
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Comparison of 'Xbush Sphere synergy horn', versus 'Balls of Prestige'.
Thanks for doing the comparison, and interesting result. I gave up on minimum phaseing my crossovers/systems after convincing myself that I can't really hear a difference that would be remotely significant (nor found anyone in my linear-phase vs typical-phase response tests who found either to be significant enough to get excited about). So better control of drivers and keeping them in the bands where they work best is the approach I go for anymore. Maybe you could try an old-world (or an active) crossover on the synergy with better slopes?

I've also come to agree that the entirely controlled-directivity path isn't a fix-all and can have some ramifications -- the most significant being ambience or envelopment. In my basement system (where I don't have to care what it looks like!) I have the waveguides arranges so that the energy that goes past me hits large diffusrs to the sides and behind and greatly helps the ambience. Without those, sound is clear and almost disconcertingly sharp, but can sound as if it's happening in a room where I'm not present.

Upstairs (where its too small and not acceptable to fill with diffusors), I've gone to using ambience drivers (similar to Duke LeJeunes' "Late Ceiling Splash" idea), delayed by about 15msec using DSP and illuminating the walls and ceiling from behind the main speakers -- this gives me much of the best of both worlds I think. The delay keeps the ambience drivers from degrading the sharp imaging and "realness" of the waveguides' sound, while greatly improving the overall envelopment. I'm sure there is more improvement to be had, but I've been quite happy with our 'upstairs sound' for several months now because of the added drivers (as non-purist as they may seem to be).
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Old 7th November 2018, 12:15 AM   #30
bushmeister is offline bushmeister
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Originally Posted by bwaslo View Post
Maybe you could try an old-world (or an active) crossover on the synergy with better slopes?

I've also come to agree that the entirely controlled-directivity path isn't a fix-all and can have some ramifications -- the most significant being ambience or envelopment.

.......sound is clear and almost disconcertingly sharp, but can sound as if it's happening in a room where I'm not present.

Upstairs (where its too small and not acceptable to fill with diffusors), I've gone to using ambience drivers (similar to Duke LeJeunes' "Late Ceiling Splash" idea), delayed by about 15msec using DSP and illuminating the walls and ceiling from behind the main speakers -- this gives me much of the best of both worlds I think.
Thanks for your insights and experiences - again very similar to mine.
The synergy crossover is using a minidsp Dac-8 and uses minimum phase steep crossovers - I have experimented with many different slopes both FIR and IIR, so I don't think this is the answer (like you!)

It is very interesting to me that we design these speakers to take the room out of the equation somewhat and then have to put it back in with diffusors and ambience tweeters!

Your description of a high directivity synergy sounding like it is "happening in a room where I am not present'' is exactly right and is what I was trying to express with my 'lack of realism' and 'like headphones but in front of me' comments at the start of this thread - this rings utterly true with what I was trying to express!
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