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1.4" or 2" throat large constant directivity horns you can actually buy!
1.4" or 2" throat large constant directivity horns you can actually buy!
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Old 3rd November 2018, 08:03 PM   #21
ScottG is offline ScottG  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris661 View Post

I also use the 18Sound ND1460 (not -A. I use the titanium version - better for PA use), and that gets another thumbs-up. Titanium diaphragms are incredibly tolerant to abuse - you'll hear the diaphragm hit the phase plug in response to LF and little (if any) damage will occur. Aluminium diaphragms aren't so tolerant.



Chris

Actually the material characteristics of Titanium and Aluminium are very similar. (..depending on the "grade" of each.)

The "A" versions have less non-linear distortion lower in freq. due, (not to the diaphragm itself), to the suspension. In the Titanium version it's a "one-piece" construction with the surround being Titanium (as part of the diaphragm), this accelerates fatigue of the diaphragm and particularly the surround. The Aluminium version has a more forgiving and damped poly surround.

I think it would be interesting to see one with a Titanium "one-piece" in a beta-phase (..that should be very durable to bending).
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Last edited by ScottG; 3rd November 2018 at 08:07 PM.
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Old 4th November 2018, 09:08 AM   #22
chris661 is offline chris661  United Kingdom
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Hi Scott,

I more meant that an aluminium diaphragm won't hold up so well to abuse, like accidentally missing out a crossover and hitting the compression driver with a few hundred watts of dubstep-style bass. Happened to mine at an amplifier demo. Inspection afterwards revealed everything was fine.

I'd be very very surprised if an aluminium diaphragm would survive that sort of thing.
Aluminium tends to be softer than titanium, so the 10kHz+ break-up will be a bit more benign.

Chris
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Old 4th November 2018, 05:15 PM   #23
LineSource is offline LineSource  United States
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NOTE: Uses JBL CD standard of 1.5"

JBL 2384 horn
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Old 4th November 2018, 11:16 PM   #24
kipman725 is offline kipman725  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cask05 View Post
See Heritage Klipsch - that big "theater" sound and "HOM" ? - Technical/Modifications - The Klipsch Audio Community

If you're wanting a cheap approximation of the K-510 to try out (with suitable EQ applied to tame the 1-4 kHz hump in response, and a little HF boosting ramp filter on the 5-16+ kHz...just like the K-510 horn needs), here is a very good horn that's also very inexpensive and that tests very well in terms of its polars relative to the K-510: 

2" Throat Horn Bolt-On 18"x10"For Assorted Bolt On 2"Exit Drivers 90degx 40deg(398) | eBay

First horizontal:
Click the image to open in full size.

Then vertical:
Click the image to open in full size.

The polars of the BMS 4592ND will be the even better up high (10-20 kHz) due to the absence of diaphragm breakup that the Klipsch K-69-A exhibits in the plots linked just above.

The K-402 used with a BMS 4592ND is superb. Here is an on-axis SPL/phase plot of the MEH version of that horn with dual 15" Crites cast frame woofers. Pay particular attention to the difference between the minimum phase trace and the total phase trace. (A hint: it's the best I've seen in a full-range horn.)

Click the image to open in full size.

Chris
Actually your projects with the k-402 waveguide were part of the inspiration for this when I saw the great results and wide frequency range you were covering. I have no idea where to source a k-402 waveguide though as apparently klipsch will only sell them with an expensive driver attached?

Do you have a normalised version of those polar plots? (IE what they would look like with flat on axis frequency response)
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Old 4th November 2018, 11:35 PM   #25
kipman725 is offline kipman725  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottG View Post
Test Bench: RCF ND950 Neodymium Compression Driver and HF950 Horn | audioXpress


Driver:

-I'd look to the 18 Sound 1460A or 1480A. Better linearity AND a much easier Impedance to work with..

Here is the 1460A on an 18 Sound XT1464:

The Raptor ... a 10" MTM
Thanks for the info these drivers do look better than the RCF ones and look to work well down to 800 Hz.
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Old 4th November 2018, 11:40 PM   #26
kipman725 is offline kipman725  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omholt View Post
I'm working with Don Keele and Bjorn Kolbrek on a horn design that have several of the same specifications. A 2-way design that requires a separate bass/subwoofer solution. May also get a horn subwoofer designed with it.

- 80x50 coverage angle
- Frequency range 90 Hz-18KHz or higher
- Crossover at 600 Hz or lower if the driver permits it
- Very uniform directivity low in frequency
- Exit angle of 1.4" (Radian 951BePB driver) but could also be made for other drivers including those with an 1.5" exit
- Non resonant enclosure

Downside is the size the horn requires for constant directivty low in frequency and it's not cheap to build either. I have a Klipsch K-402 horn which I will use for comparison to the top horn. The top horn needs to be better than Klipsch for it to be worth it.

Already have measured and tested the midbass horn. While we'll may be making some adjustments to it, it does work tremendously well today. The horizontal directivty doesn't change much before you get to 100-150 Hz. Picture of it below with the Klipsch K-402 horn on top.
wow what a great looking project, kind of an all horn speaker done right. Do you have any idea where to get a pair of K-402?

The Radian 951BePB driver looks fantastic but like all Be drivers is a bit out of budget
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Old 5th November 2018, 12:08 AM   #27
kipman725 is offline kipman725  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris661 View Post
The RCF HF94 gets a thumbs-up from me. I use it in my main PA system, and it does the job well. The HF950 appears to have a slight "pinch" before the final expansion, which isn't great for HOMs. It does load to a lower frequency, though.

I also use the 18Sound ND1460 (not -A. I use the titanium version - better for PA use), and that gets another thumbs-up. Titanium diaphragms are incredibly tolerant to abuse - you'll hear the diaphragm hit the phase plug in response to LF and little (if any) damage will occur. Aluminium diaphragms aren't so tolerant.

The thing to remember here is that larger exit diameters will beam at a lower frequency. A 1" exit driver will have reasonably good off-axis response past 10kHz, while a 2" exit driver will not. A 1.4" exit diameter is a decent compromise for a lot of applications.

Rod Elliott has a bit here: PA Systems
About compression driver exit diameters vs output vs LF cutoff.

The BMS coaxial compression drivers are really nice, but still constrained by the off-axis response of the exit diameter. ie, they might well get past 20kHz, but it could still be a laserbeam up there. Horns will constrain wavelengths that are trying to be omnidirectional, but when the compression driver itself is beaming, the horn becomes irrelevant.

My main PA system* will do what you're after with a bit of headroom, and sound good doing it. I wouldn't want to be in any domestic-sized space while it's run up to full power, though. Hopefully you're not planning on doing that.

*HF - 18Sound ND1460 on RCF HF94 horns
MF - 2x Faital Pro 10FH520
LF - Up to 4x Faital Pro 15HP1060
^ per side. You'd probably manage your SPL goals with 2x 15"s per side.

It'd be around 100 miles round-trip for you, but I'd be happy to demo that setup.
I've crossed over as low as 750Hz for PA use, which gives a really smooth off-axis response that matches to the 10"s well, but I usually run at about 1kHz out of concern for the HF driver's long-term health. No point in working them harder than necessary if the next band down can cover that range easily.

I also have a pair of 6.5" 2-way boxes that have 1" exit drivers. They'd probably manage 125dB peaks between them, but it'd be a couple of cycles "burst", while the 2x10"s can do >125dB sine waves.
If it's of interest, I wrote an article about SPL ratings in the PA world. It ain't pretty.
Spec Wars: Looking Inside Loudspeaker SPL Specifications - ProSoundWeb

Chris
Very interesting my sub bass setup is 4*200L boxes of dual opposed 15" drivers totalling 8 drivers. They are not super high performance drivers with only 8mm xmax but they were very cheap and seem to be well built, I have verified that they all reach decent levels of excursion in free air. ( Subwoofer Pyle PLPW15D specifications. ). If they don't work out I will just replace them with better drivers as funds permit, i'm a bit depth restricted on my cabinets for deep "uber" drivers. I would like to do power compression testing on the first sub I have built to see what they can do but don't have access to a space at the moment where I can reach anywhere near full output of just one sub.

I'd love to have a demo of your system, it looks to have a very similar design idea to what I have been aiming for with avoiding clusters and trying to get the whole thing as point source as possible. I'm actually in Sheffield on Friday this week in the evening so I could turn up earlier on Friday (3pm - 7pm period) if your available then.

Interesting article on the specs. I was aiming for 125dB because my friends Makie Thump 12 are rated as "125dB" Max SPL and defiantly go much louder than required at mid/high frequencies for the type of environments we are using them. I wonder how inflated their specs are? I already took a long look at their data sheet and found their bass response specs although correct quite misleading.
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Old 5th November 2018, 12:12 AM   #28
kipman725 is offline kipman725  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LineSource View Post
NOTE: Uses JBL CD standard of 1.5"

JBL 365359 001 Top WaveGuide for 3732 | $130 - $140
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Old 5th November 2018, 12:13 AM   #29
kipman725 is offline kipman725  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scholl View Post
Is your listening room a typical home living room 5 Meters by 5-10 meters? IF so you may not need constant directivity below 700hz where the XT1464 will match well to a 15 and deliver awesome results.


Another used option would be a JBL PD 5322 or another JBL compression driver cone mid combination. That's a hard to beat combo to 300hz.

Otherwise the SEOS 24 with BMS should be studied.

I'm not aiming to cross to a direct radiator, I have had an idea that I need to test out before I make a fool of myself before trying it out
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Old 5th November 2018, 01:10 AM   #30
Cask05 is offline Cask05  United States
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Klipsch only sells the horn with driver attached--which deliberately raises the price. Their explanation is that they're not a parts house. There may be an MEH version of the horn in the near future.

Here are the normalized plots of the ZXPC horn. First horizontal:
1.4" or 2" throat large constant directivity horns you can actually buy!-horm-hori-normalized-polar-spectrogram-jpg


then vertical:
1.4" or 2" throat large constant directivity horns you can actually buy!-horm-vert-normalized-polar-spectrogram-jpg
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File Type: jpg New Horm Hori normalized polar spectrogram.jpg (229.9 KB, 435 views)
File Type: jpg New Horm Vert normalized polar spectrogram.jpg (218.4 KB, 426 views)
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