Go Back   Home > Forums > >
Home Forums Rules Articles diyAudio Store Blogs Gallery Wiki Register Donations FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Is Midrange Driver(s) Fried (honking at times)
Is Midrange Driver(s) Fried (honking at times)
Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 30th October 2018, 07:28 AM   #1
PrecisionAudio is offline PrecisionAudio  United States
diyAudio Member
 
PrecisionAudio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Question Is Midrange Driver(s) Fried (honking at times)

Quick question:

I've known of a song for decades whose beginning, when played at moderate to loud volumes, can cause the 6" midranges to "honk" (if that is the correct term for a blown/overloaded voicecoil's sound) and I'm 100% certain that it isn't signal/amplifier clipping too (or the song, at a louder volume, having a different sound altogether as in "finer, quieter notes" coming through). I have the complete signal chain from the unsigned 16-bit integer values through its final amplification known/mapped.

The song is Soundgarden's "Rusty Cage" (Badmotorfinger - 1991) when the opening guitars play a left/right channel duet.

I'm certain there are other songs but the opening to Rusty Cage can make the mids "lose it" at a relatively moderate volume (and I kind of like my music loud - but do take breaks as per what OSHA recommends - serious on that). And, after that guitar intro, I bet when I turn up the volume, any further horrible sounds are masked by the other instruments.

Are the mids unable to do one of the guitar frequencies, a blending of frequencies, or what? For any guitar musicians out there, maybe letting me know what the notes/chords played are could be VERY interesting (I would be extremely interested in knowing the frequency spectrums).

Also, are there any other "test songs" that could be used to determine if mids are damaged in such a way that they will "honk" at only moderate volume levels? I suspect this is a phenomenon not easily reproduced by just running a frequency sweep of a sine wave through the spectrum and listening to when a left/right/both mid sound bad. Or, if it is, I could try that I guess.

Thanks!

BTW, when asked to play this disc (Badmotorfinger) when it first came out and some fans of the band (unbeknownst to me) asked me to play it at a large party, I asked "Which song?" (as I hadn't seen it before) and all four of them said in unison without interruption, "ALL OF THEM!!!" It was a classic kegger moment.
J
  Reply With Quote
Old 30th October 2018, 07:32 AM   #2
PrecisionAudio is offline PrecisionAudio  United States
diyAudio Member
 
PrecisionAudio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
I probably should have placed this in the Multi-way section perhaps. Sorry if so.
  Reply With Quote
Old 30th October 2018, 03:18 PM   #3
Soldermizer is offline Soldermizer  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Soldermizer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Tamper, FL, USA
Do you have a test equipment (PC software) that can play sine sweeps through your speakers? I often hear audible distortions with drivers, more likely at louder volumes. However, as you noted, in normal use the fault may be rare or even never happening. Fortunately we don't listen to loud test signals as regular mater8ial
__________________
Performing unnatural acts to circuits since age ten
  Reply With Quote
Old 30th October 2018, 07:02 PM   #4
Dave Bullet is offline Dave Bullet  New Zealand
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Is the voice coil exposed? I don't know if a visual check is definitive anyway.

Next thing to do would be impedance sweeps with the raw driver, slowly increasing the volume and seeing if there are any ripples or spikes indicating friction if you fear voice coil rubbing.

You could try putting on earmuffs and listening nearfield at higher volume to see if you can hear any scratching / rubbing over the music?

The other option is a fried crossover component (blown cap / resistor) not attenuating any cone breakup which gets more irritable as the volume increases. It's probably ~ 3KHz region I'm guessing? do you know the crossover topology / slopes? Can you measure component values?
__________________
"Usual diyaudio train wreck of dubious drivers and just the crossover to sort out. Well, how are you on crossovers and modelling? Pretty green, I reckon" - system7 (Steve)
  Reply With Quote
Old 30th October 2018, 11:30 PM   #5
hollowboy is offline hollowboy  Australia
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: 'straya
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrecisionAudio View Post
(1) I'm certain there are other songs but the opening to Rusty Cage can make the mids "lose it" at a relatively moderate volume [...]

(2) Are the mids unable to do one of the guitar frequencies, a blending of frequencies, or what? [...]

(3) Also, are there any other "test songs" that could be used to determine if mids are damaged in such a way that they will "honk" at only moderate volume levels?
Do you think what you are noticing is the same as what is described in this link?
Siri's Killer Note

If yes, (2) is 'a blending of frequencies' - you're playing back a relatively simple sound, with lots of harmonics. One possibility is that your 6" mids have a HF peak that goes nuts on the harmonics.

...and if that is correct, (1) and (3) would be anything similar. Trumpets have a lot of harmonics. Do your speakers sound OK on loud brass instruments?
There's life above 20 kilohertz! A survey of musical instrument spectra to 102.4 kHz

I find brass instruments to be a good torture test.

BTW: I remember owning badmotorfinger on tape - High Fidelity indeed Their later stuff & most rock of that genre / era bores me, but that particular album really floated my boat. The Johnny Cash cover is also grand.
__________________
This edit signature thingy is seriously hard to find
  Reply With Quote
Old 2nd November 2018, 10:43 AM   #6
PrecisionAudio is offline PrecisionAudio  United States
diyAudio Member
 
PrecisionAudio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soldermizer View Post
Do you have a test equipment (PC software) that can play sine sweeps through your speakers? I often hear audible distortions with drivers, more likely at louder volumes. However, as you noted, in normal use the fault may be rare or even never happening. Fortunately we don't listen to loud test signals as regular mater8ial
Yep. I do have software that can generate nearly any kind of sweep (wrote it myself back in the 90's) but I didn't think that any "pure tones" could cause such a most horrible noise from the mids. I'm trying to explain it but my line of thinking is similar to DTMF sounds when using the old-style push-button telephone. Two frequencies are "played" simultaneously and that is how the beginning of that song sounds (more than two frequencies actually with those guitars) so I didn't think to even try pure tones.

I'm redoing my "audio room" but will run the tests when all of the analog and digital equipment is connected, fired-up, and tested.

Thanks!
  Reply With Quote
Old 2nd November 2018, 11:08 AM   #7
PrecisionAudio is offline PrecisionAudio  United States
diyAudio Member
 
PrecisionAudio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Bullet View Post
Is the voice coil exposed? I don't know if a visual check is definitive anyway.

Next thing to do would be impedance sweeps with the raw driver, slowly increasing the volume and seeing if there are any ripples or spikes indicating friction if you fear voice coil rubbing.

You could try putting on earmuffs and listening nearfield at higher volume to see if you can hear any scratching / rubbing over the music?

The other option is a fried crossover component (blown cap / resistor) not attenuating any cone breakup which gets more irritable as the volume increases. It's probably ~ 3KHz region I'm guessing? do you know the crossover topology / slopes? Can you measure component values?
Excellent suggestions and I thank you.

I must admit that these speakers are two-way with a horn tweeter, approx sized 6" midrange, totally sealed with the exception of the bass reflex round front-firing port (the glue and screws used is petrified by this time - as in rock solid), and they weigh a ton (by design) to eliminate any resonance. They were built by a relative of mine quite long ago. Also, the speaker driver cone "avatar" picture in my posts is of the midrange I'm talking about. If anyone can identify it, I would be extremely appreciative. It even has a "whizzer cone", heh. But, they do sound excellent. I am just afraid of trying to take them apart after the near 50 years they have been in service (especially through my teen and twenties years prior to building my own subs and then letting the latter handle the difficult air volumes, heh). But, I will send my relative some questions. Maybe he still remembers the parts used. I have to admit, truly, that after how I drove these speakers (but never to amplifier clipping) and at volume levels where hearing needed a "break" to be safe, I am VERY curious to this day of the brands of horn tweeter, midrange, and crossover inside of them.

I am not too familiar with "impedance sweeps" but will read up on the subject and do know that drivers "spike" in impedance at specific points.

The "earmuff test" might be interesting because I learned long ago that wearing in-ear 30-32 dBspl (1/8th as loud) plugs at concerts here at places like First Avenue actually makes the mids much more understandable (the vocals and guitar) plus doesn't allow the air pressure from the bass drum(s) into the canal but rather to instead vibrate my shirt. I also have over-the-ear protection too in the same rating range of 30 to 32. I've worn both the in-ear and over the ear at the same time and it gets REALLY nice and quiet then, heh. At -60dBspl, that is 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16, 1/32, and finally 1/64th as loud then, correct?
  Reply With Quote
Old 2nd November 2018, 11:35 AM   #8
PrecisionAudio is offline PrecisionAudio  United States
diyAudio Member
 
PrecisionAudio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
BTW, I spent a month driving around both of your nation's north and south islands (driving on the opposite side of the car and opposite side of the road was interesting, haha). Flew in from LAX to Auckland and then took a domestic flight to Christchurch where we picked-up our rental car. All I kept saying was please let my skills get me out of the center downtown area and to the hostel in one piece. Then after touring Christchurch, get me safely (until I'm used to it) out of the downtown outskirts and onto the road to Dunedin. I was bummed-out to learn of the earthquake that likely damaged the beautiful buildings in Christchurch some years ago... I did drive the steepest paved road in the world in Dunedin, heh.

Your entire nation is a national park. And the little white dots on the ground while doing the short hop from Auckland to Christchurch (flew in from LAX first), well, those little white dots were SHEEP. Never knew that until I got there, heh. I did see them up close on the "one tree hill" or "lone tree hill" where bad guys have tried to harm that tree (not cool of them).

This was nearly two decades ago. Was able to stay in hostels back then at that age.

I've traveled to very many USA national parks but, seriously, your country is one big one!

Bumper Bars (the raspberry ones) are my favorite plus the Cadbury, of course.

And, while attending an authentic Maori celebration and dinner, ME, out of some 50 people, was selected by the Maori greeter as his focal point. I respectfully kept a straight face and eyes locked, as told, and it was quite the experience.

Also, while watching a movie named Ender's Game, I immediately knew that Ben Kingsley's character was Maori, which he explained to the young kid character named Ender.
  Reply With Quote
Old 3rd November 2018, 01:32 PM   #9
Cask05 is offline Cask05  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Cask05's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Arlington, TX
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrecisionAudio View Post
Quick question:

I've known of a song for decades whose beginning, when played at moderate to loud volumes, can cause the 6" midranges to "honk" (if that is the correct term for a blown/overloaded voicecoil's sound) and I'm 100% certain that it isn't signal/amplifier clipping too (or the song, at a louder volume, having a different sound altogether as in "finer, quieter notes" coming through)...

...and I kind of like my music loud...And, after that guitar intro, I bet when I turn up the volume, any further horrible sounds are masked by the other instruments.

Are the mids unable to do one of the guitar frequencies, a blending of frequencies, or what? For any guitar musicians out there, maybe letting me know what the notes/chords played are could be VERY interesting (I would be extremely interested in knowing the frequency spectrums).

Also, are there any other "test songs" that could be used to determine if mids are damaged in such a way that they will "honk" at only moderate volume levels? I suspect this is a phenomenon not easily reproduced by just running a frequency sweep of a sine wave through the spectrum and listening to when a left/right/both mid sound bad. Or, if it is, I could try that I guess.

...I do have software that can generate nearly any kind of sweep...but I didn't think that any "pure tones" could cause such a most horrible noise from the mids. I'm trying to explain it but my line of thinking is similar to DTMF sounds when using the old-style push-button telephone. Two frequencies are "played" simultaneously and that is how the beginning of that song sounds (more than two frequencies actually with those guitars) so I didn't think to even try pure tones.

I'm redoing my "audio room" but will run the tests when all of the analog and digital equipment is connected, fired-up, and tested.

Thanks!
These are among the most obvious subjective observations of modulation distortion in loudspeakers that I've read. Most people would talk about "wooly sounding" or "opaque", but not "honk".

If you take those very same 6" drivers and horn load them, the modulation distortion sideband levels will drop 15-25 dB...depending on the exact design of the driver...thus rendering the modulation distortion inaudible.

This is not a new phenomenon:

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/79d...18c56a7d5f.pdf

https://www.passlabs.com/sites/defau...d_feedback.pdf

Intermodulation distortion

https://www.klippel.de/fileadmin/kli...Distortion.pdf

https://www.klippel.de/fileadmin/kli...Distortion.pdf

https://www.klippel.de/fileadmin/kli...Distortion.pdf

Chris

Last edited by Cask05; 3rd November 2018 at 01:38 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 3rd November 2018, 02:29 PM   #10
Soldermizer is offline Soldermizer  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Soldermizer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Tamper, FL, USA
It's honking because there are impatient musical notes waiting to exit the driver
__________________
Performing unnatural acts to circuits since age ten
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Is Midrange Driver(s) Fried (honking at times)Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Fried H dual TL - what current driver? tigerdog Subwoofers 21 24th February 2018 05:50 AM
5.5 inch midrange driver or 2 inch dome midrange? rhythmsandy Multi-Way 43 20th June 2013 03:58 PM
Honking Sound? vdi_nenna Pass Labs 10 2nd November 2009 07:49 PM
L-pad attenuator for midrange driver 6 1/4 inch driver rhythmdiy Multi-Way 0 4th November 2007 04:32 PM
Which driver for the midrange B4 Multi-Way 5 11th November 2005 11:07 PM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 06:28 PM.


Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Resources saved on this page: MySQL 15.00%
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ©1999-2018 diyAudio
Wiki