Hi guys, I've been reading all the threads on FAST/WAW I could find but have some unanswered questions that bug me. Goal is a pair of speakers for HT/music system, ~3m listening distance, moderate levels but peak handling capability is always desirable. Opinions and advice would be greatly appreciated! So what I have settled on:
DCX2496 for all the xo/dsp needs (already have).
3.5" fullrange from the TC9FD/TG9FD/10f family, crossed at 300-500Hz
Now for the helper woofer I want to go sealed, no larger than 30l (1 cuft) and have f3 in the 60Hz region, supported by my 12" sub if the situation calls for it.
Another thing to consider, prices here in Europe are a bit unpredictable and what is considered a bargain in US, can be pretty meh value here.
Based on local availability I have some candidates that seem to fit the requirements:
1. 2x DA175. Pros: love the looks, price, high Zaph rating, high surface area. Cons: will run out of xmax at anything above 105dB unless high-passed. Would go for clumped MTM, like Dave's
or
2. 1x CA18RLY. Pros: higher sensitivity and max spl (even single) due to much bigger xmax, plays nice in 20l box. Cons: roughly 3x more expensive than DA175.
3. 1x SB23NRXS45. Pros: very good sensitivity, very high SPL capability, works well in 1cuft box or even smaller. Cons: probably an overkill for my application, roughly 3x more expensive than DA175.
There also RS225, I know it's well regarded and popular but I personally just don't like the looks of it and it costs almost as much as the SB23NRXS45 here so would prefer SB one.
So here it is, looking forward for any tips or other choices I'm not aware of
Kostas
DCX2496 for all the xo/dsp needs (already have).
3.5" fullrange from the TC9FD/TG9FD/10f family, crossed at 300-500Hz
Now for the helper woofer I want to go sealed, no larger than 30l (1 cuft) and have f3 in the 60Hz region, supported by my 12" sub if the situation calls for it.
Another thing to consider, prices here in Europe are a bit unpredictable and what is considered a bargain in US, can be pretty meh value here.
Based on local availability I have some candidates that seem to fit the requirements:
1. 2x DA175. Pros: love the looks, price, high Zaph rating, high surface area. Cons: will run out of xmax at anything above 105dB unless high-passed. Would go for clumped MTM, like Dave's
or
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
2. 1x CA18RLY. Pros: higher sensitivity and max spl (even single) due to much bigger xmax, plays nice in 20l box. Cons: roughly 3x more expensive than DA175.
3. 1x SB23NRXS45. Pros: very good sensitivity, very high SPL capability, works well in 1cuft box or even smaller. Cons: probably an overkill for my application, roughly 3x more expensive than DA175.
There also RS225, I know it's well regarded and popular but I personally just don't like the looks of it and it costs almost as much as the SB23NRXS45 here so would prefer SB one.
So here it is, looking forward for any tips or other choices I'm not aware of
Kostas
A single CA18 doesn't have higher SPL capability at low frequency than 2xDA175. The SB23 allows the highest SPL out of those options:
Linear displacement:
2x DA175 -> 2 x 133cm^2 x 0.425cm = 113cm^3
1x CA18RLY -> 136cm^2 x 0.5cm = 68cm^3
1x SB23NRXS45 -> 216cm^2 x 0.65cm = 140.4cm^3
What about the DA215 and RS180?
Linear displacement:
2x DA175 -> 2 x 133cm^2 x 0.425cm = 113cm^3
1x CA18RLY -> 136cm^2 x 0.5cm = 68cm^3
1x SB23NRXS45 -> 216cm^2 x 0.65cm = 140.4cm^3
What about the DA215 and RS180?
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Thanks TMM for input! My assumptions about max SPL are based on WinISD simulations (attached), of course that is only valid for standalone scenario. If highpassed even at 60hz, the maximum SPL increases significantly.
The RS180 is a fine driver but suffers from the same drawback as RS225 - I don't like the pointy phase plug...
However DA215 is an interesting option, haven't considered that one. Do you know of any good projects with it or at least HD measurements?
K.
The RS180 is a fine driver but suffers from the same drawback as RS225 - I don't like the pointy phase plug...
However DA215 is an interesting option, haven't considered that one. Do you know of any good projects with it or at least HD measurements?
K.
Attachments
Haven't seen any projects or measurements although the DA215 is basically an enlarged version of the DA175 so expect it to be very very similar but with slightly better HD down low (<150Hz) due to the larger cone area and slightly worse HD up top (>500Hz) due to the higher voicecoil inductance.
First decide on your FR driver and look at its max SPL capabilities because that will determine the SPL you need out of your woofers.
And then decide if you are going to use a HP filter between your sub and the woofers. Generally it's recommended but you may be able to get away without one. But it will make a difference for the woofer choice - with a HP filter, you'll have more drivers to choose from as you'll need less excursion from them to reach higher SPL's.
The Dayton ND140-8 comes to mind as a possible good match, depending on the above choices of course.
And then decide if you are going to use a HP filter between your sub and the woofers. Generally it's recommended but you may be able to get away without one. But it will make a difference for the woofer choice - with a HP filter, you'll have more drivers to choose from as you'll need less excursion from them to reach higher SPL's.
The Dayton ND140-8 comes to mind as a possible good match, depending on the above choices of course.
That's what I've been trying to do, jReave. I've found many references that for normal music approx. 50% energy split happens at roughly 300-500Hz region, so the FR will have to provide about half the output. As this happens to be TG9FD (4 ohm version, arrived this morning) which will bottom out at 10W if the datasheet is correct (seems bizarre as the almost identical TC9FD is rated for 30W) which equals ~94dB.
If those assumptions are correct them I'm gonna be fine with even a single DA175 going to about 100dB.
I must say I'm a bit disappointed with my purchase...
If those assumptions are correct them I'm gonna be fine with even a single DA175 going to about 100dB.
I must say I'm a bit disappointed with my purchase...
I must say those little Vifas actually confuse me because I've seen some spec sheets for the same driver that listed different power handling capabilities. If you run the sims, when you operate it full range, xmax is in fact exceeded either sealed or ported before 10W. But if you run say a LR2 HP filter as low as 400Hz, you'll have no problem with xmax with well over 100W. So it's just a question of how much thermal power it can handle before you burn out the voice coil which I suspect it's more than 10W but I don't have any hard data to support that.
But still if you want to be safe, then you are best limited to SPL's in the 80dB's at the listening position depending on how far away you sit from your speakers, which isn't too bad but certainly won't be pushing things too hard.
So stick with that FR driver or find something with a little more gusto might be your next choice.
But still if you want to be safe, then you are best limited to SPL's in the 80dB's at the listening position depending on how far away you sit from your speakers, which isn't too bad but certainly won't be pushing things too hard.
So stick with that FR driver or find something with a little more gusto might be your next choice.
What about this one: W.20.140.8.MC - Nagłośnienie STX It should provide f3 even below 50Hz in 30l and it's pretty affordable ~16EUR/piece. And no pointy phase plug. But you would have to check if they would send it to your country (as they wrote in their page, sending abroad needs special email/telephone contact).
Woah! That is some seriously cheap woofer! And I've looked at their range, they seem to have many reasonable drivers. Can't seem to find any data or measurements on them though, do you have direct experience with this company?
Potential options?
1. Throw about a 400Hz HP filter on 1 of those Vifas and see if it can actually go loud enough for you before it goes kaboom.
2. Stick with the Vifas but double them up for another 6dB of output. The Nola Trios do that without a tweeter but maybe you'll want to change the design to a 3-way and add a little tweeter to make a MTMW or MTMWW.
3. Find a new FR driver that can play loud enough for you:
Tangband W4 1052SD
Dayton RS100P-8
Dayton RS100-8
Faital Pro 4FE32-8
Tangband W4 1320SJ
Tangband W4 13337SDF
1. Throw about a 400Hz HP filter on 1 of those Vifas and see if it can actually go loud enough for you before it goes kaboom.
2. Stick with the Vifas but double them up for another 6dB of output. The Nola Trios do that without a tweeter but maybe you'll want to change the design to a 3-way and add a little tweeter to make a MTMW or MTMWW.
3. Find a new FR driver that can play loud enough for you:
Tangband W4 1052SD
Dayton RS100P-8
Dayton RS100-8
Faital Pro 4FE32-8
Tangband W4 1320SJ
Tangband W4 13337SDF
So that's what I did, paired them up with 6" monitors for low end and the TG9FDs seem plenty loud for my needs, no signs of damage or bad smell.
Furthermore, I seem to like lower order crossover more, so that kind of seals the deal at 500Hz and 6 or 12 dB/oct. Which then leads to higher requirements for the woofer to play nicely in the midrange, mostly excluding cheap dedicated 8+ inch woofers.
So either a really good 8",or reasonable 6". The problem with that is most if not all reasonable 6 inchers are designed for vented enclosures so I might have to rethink my design goals. Or just go with the DA175 and live with their low sensitivity..
I figured there was a chance. I'd probably go at least 2nd order acoustic at 400 or 500Hz though to help keep power consumption more limited. Even 600Hz maybe.
For your woofers, I'd actually be shooting for an F3 of 40Hz without a sub which is about the bottom end for most music, or else go anywhere up to 80Hz and just use your sub all the time. The trouble is that it's pretty hard to get down to 40Hz sealed without going for a large woofer, a large box or both. But going sealed isn't a bad choice because the transients are generally considered to be better.
Double check your sims on the DA175. Ideally, it wants more than 30L for 2 of them sealed (40L or over depending on how you stuff them) and for music that hits down to 40Hz, xmax is exceeded at about 99dB without a sub (which should be fine for your application I would think but it's just lower than what you posted before). F3 though does not get you to 40Hz, close but only about 48Hz.
Two of the Dayton ND140-8 are good though in 30L sealed and give you about the same max SPL as the DA but have such a large mechanical excursion that you can play them louder if you want. F3 though is a little higher at about 63Hz, fine though with a sub.
Sticking sealed plus a sub, you might also look at the SB 16PFC25-8. You'll get 104dB out of 2 of them sealed in 20L with an F3 of 68Hz.
Going vented gives you more woofers to look at, even down to 4" or 5" depending on a sub or no sub, but watch out for box size - keeping it under 30L may be the hard part.
For music, if you want to feel the bass as well as just hear it you just have to go with a sub. So my 1st choice would probably be sealed with the SB16's in an oversized box (25-30L) heavily stuffed and crossed around 60-80Hz. YMMV of course.
For your woofers, I'd actually be shooting for an F3 of 40Hz without a sub which is about the bottom end for most music, or else go anywhere up to 80Hz and just use your sub all the time. The trouble is that it's pretty hard to get down to 40Hz sealed without going for a large woofer, a large box or both. But going sealed isn't a bad choice because the transients are generally considered to be better.
Double check your sims on the DA175. Ideally, it wants more than 30L for 2 of them sealed (40L or over depending on how you stuff them) and for music that hits down to 40Hz, xmax is exceeded at about 99dB without a sub (which should be fine for your application I would think but it's just lower than what you posted before). F3 though does not get you to 40Hz, close but only about 48Hz.
Two of the Dayton ND140-8 are good though in 30L sealed and give you about the same max SPL as the DA but have such a large mechanical excursion that you can play them louder if you want. F3 though is a little higher at about 63Hz, fine though with a sub.
Sticking sealed plus a sub, you might also look at the SB 16PFC25-8. You'll get 104dB out of 2 of them sealed in 20L with an F3 of 68Hz.
Going vented gives you more woofers to look at, even down to 4" or 5" depending on a sub or no sub, but watch out for box size - keeping it under 30L may be the hard part.
For music, if you want to feel the bass as well as just hear it you just have to go with a sub. So my 1st choice would probably be sealed with the SB16's in an oversized box (25-30L) heavily stuffed and crossed around 60-80Hz. YMMV of course.
Thanks everyone for the suggestions, after a lot of WinISD modeling and actual experimentation with existing speaker setup I think I have settled on a risky but potentially fruitful solution. I will put two W18.200.8.MCX drivers per speaker into 15-20l sealed enclosure, which will give me f3 of about 80hz ( nice q of about 0.7) and a healthy reserve of xmax in case I need to boost the lows with LT. These drivers seem to be highly valued among Polish diyers so for the price worth the risk.
W.18.200.8.MCX_v2 - Nagłośnienie STX
Will update with measurements when available
W.18.200.8.MCX_v2 - Nagłośnienie STX
Will update with measurements when available
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