Looking for a euphoric mid-range driver - polymer driver?

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Those measurements were done as preliminary test. Because the dip is not showing in the 3-way measurement I started wondering if it is a standing wave in mid compartment, the original speaker is WWMTM and mid enclosure is roughly 70cm high and now the mid is almost in the middle. Otherwise it could be floor and ceiling reflections together.
 
I presume we are looking for a decent 5" polycone midrange speaker for a BBC-style three way.

Here's a strong candidate, the 5" Peerless 830860:

Peerless HDS PPB 830860

It's actually a midbass rather than strictly midrange, which is a different animal altogether if you really understand how it works. But evidently does a capable job. Why, even Troels Gravesen comments on the lack of nasty breakups which make it suitable for a three way just like the old KEF B110. :)

Perfection can wait. Just give me something that works. :cool:
 
Have been thinking about this and have narrowed down the options to

1. Audio Technology C-Quenze Audio Technology 18H52-17-06-SD midwoofer current list price is €236
OR
2. SB Acoustics 6½" SATORI MW16P, £122

Jeff Bagby has used both of these and seems to favor the Audio Technology 18H as the Spirit Wind has become his new reference monitor. Just a shame their's no way to get some further subjective comparison without purchasing both and building them in identical sealed enclosures.

I would like to do a Kairos or Spirit Wind monitor, plus Jeffs woofer addon, but am having great difficulty deciding between the two designs (I would build them sealed). The Kairos is as close to transient perfect as you can get, has low group delay and is minimum phase. I have no idea if the Spirit Wind uses the same 1st order crossover topology, but it is likely that it is not time perfect like the Kairos due to not having a stepped or slanted baffle. I think my ideal design would be the Kairos concept, but using the Audio Technology 18H drivers.

Trying to buy the plans from Meniscus audio, but so far no response from them...

Anyone have any feedback?
 
Well I have built the Kairos and they are very good.
There is not going to be any perfect in this category however.They all have compromises compared to a good three way.
You could certainly do a lot worse than the Kairos though.The only thing they lack to me is dynamics which is typical of the species and treble sophistication which only comes with far more expensive tweeters .Not that the treble is in any way bad-just not that extra bit special.You could buy some Harbeths which probably have slightly better midrange tone[well they are special in that area] but they do not image nearly as well as the Kairos.So really it is all about what set of compromises you are prepared to live with.
Personally I think a good dome midrange is the most natural sounding midrange you can get but they are hard to get right.By far the best midrange I have heard is from Yamaha NS5000 speakers which use Zylon dome mids.
 
Cheers jtgofish.

After experiencing the amazing imaging and sound stage on a pair of Linkwitz LX mini's, it's something I'd like to keep. I am presuming that the Kairos is in a similar ball park, although perhaps less sound stage depth (as not dipole). Jeff Bagby's paper on sound staging and imaging provides a pretty good explanation as to why the Harbeths probably won't image as well, and despite being tonally brilliant, is something I would pass on.

Interesting that you say that the Kairos lack dynamics - this was one of my reasons for looking for alternative speakers to the LX minis as they couldn't quite manage this either (yet both speakers have high excursion drivers? So this confuses me!). I was hoping that when combined with the woofer module and becoming a three way, that the Kairos would outperform an LX mini in terms of dynamics. I have a small room, so dipole is not really an option, so I can't do the LX521's (otherwise I would have jumped at it). I'm also trying to chase time alignment, group delay and minimum phase to get the imaging and soundstage, along with tight and dynamic percusion.

Is more drivers the answer? e.g. twin mid-ranges, perhaps arranged in a point source config (Beolab 90 as three illuminator mid ranges in a triangle config). I am aiming for something smaller in stature than a Beolab 90 though!
 
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Looks like I've just found an answer from Troels:

"The hard-pressed paper cone of the Satori MW16 does its thing and appear to have a dynamic headroom on par with my beloved AT 18H driver from the ATS-4. It sounds different, because paper sounds different than polyprop. And there's no point in describing it, because you won't know what it means until you've heard it yourself from two well-tuned speaker systems. It's a matter of taste."

SBAcoustics 10

Transient response and dynamics are reported as being excellent - despite it being ported. Maybe this is the speaker I should build... I just prefer the (simpler?) Jeff Bagby crossover.
 
Looks like I've just found an answer from Troels:

"The hard-pressed paper cone of the Satori MW16 does its thing and appear to have a dynamic headroom on par with my beloved AT 18H driver from the ATS-4. It sounds different, because paper sounds different than polyprop. And there's no point in describing it, because you won't know what it means until you've heard it yourself from two well-tuned speaker systems. It's a matter of taste."

SBAcoustics 10

Transient response and dynamics are reported as being excellent - despite it being ported. Maybe this is the speaker I should build... I just prefer the (simpler?) Jeff Bagby crossover.


I built the 3 way Kairos too but cannot recommend it.The two way sounds better.The SB 10 inch woofer is a very soggy sounding driver and has poor timing. I suspect the Troels SB 10 would be much the same.Really it is more of a subwoofer-.moving mass is too high and force factor too low.I am still working on finding a faster and more textured sounding replacement.Unfortunately a lot of modern woofers sound like that.
 
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Have been thinking about this and have narrowed down the options to

1. Audio Technology C-Quenze Audio Technology 18H52-17-06-SD midwoofer current list price is €236
OR
2. SB Acoustics 6½" SATORI MW16P, £122

Jeff Bagby has used both of these and seems to favor the Audio Technology 18H as the Spirit Wind has become his new reference monitor. Just a shame their's no way to get some further subjective comparison without purchasing both and building them in identical sealed enclosures.

I would like to do a Kairos or Spirit Wind monitor, plus Jeffs woofer addon, but am having great difficulty deciding between the two designs (I would build them sealed). The Kairos is as close to transient perfect as you can get, has low group delay and is minimum phase. I have no idea if the Spirit Wind uses the same 1st order crossover topology, but it is likely that it is not time perfect like the Kairos due to not having a stepped or slanted baffle. I think my ideal design would be the Kairos concept, but using the Audio Technology 18H drivers.

Trying to buy the plans from Meniscus audio, but so far no response from them...

Anyone have any feedback?

I am using the SB Satori MR16P-4 which are the midrange version of the Satori MW***. I have heard many drivers in many categories and price ranges. These Satori mids. will hold their own with just about any driver out their regardless of price or design/type. I am using them very wide band, crossing to a super-tweeter. (While MANY of you will disagree with me; I consider beaming to be the LEAST important parameter). They blend seamlessly to just about any tweeter regardless of your X/O preferences; definitely worth every penny; highly recommended!
 
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