I've been a big B&W fan for many years ago, having owned 20+ pairs (mainly the higher end 800 series) with my first pair purchased 25 years ago.
I'd been happy until recently, where I "upgraded" from the 800D2 to the newer range 803D3.
To cut a long story short, I think the 803D3 are crap. What little they may be better in overall quality, the presentaion is overall poor. They sound more like bookshelf speakers - thin, flat soundstage, no sense of scale etc.
B&W claim the 803D3 are a step up from the 802D2 - but they are not.
To be fair to them, it is probably a result of the environment - my room measures 6x5x3m, adjoing a dining room of the same dimensions so the 803 might not be man enough.
Anyway, the most obvious solution is to upgrade to the bigger 802 or 800 to acheive the BIG and more balanced sound I am looking for. But to be honest I'm fed up of pouring 1000's and 1000's into overpriced commercial products. I'd probably need £6,000 just to change to the 802D3's with no guarantee I'd be happy
So in order to pinpoint what I don't like about my 803, I put my Classe SSP Sigma into 2.1 mode to engage my DIY 3kw 15" Sub. It didn't make a lot of difference, but the sense of scale did improve slightly as I increased the x-over up to 150Hz, although the sounstage started to warp in the direction of the sub.
So my next move was to build 2 x 12" Enimence LAB 12C subs in 350mm cubes, powerered by repurposing my Behringer iNuke 3000DSP amp.
Using the DSP of the Behringer, and DSP in my JRiver PC based media player I was able to raise the x-over between the subs and 803, whilst keeping the overall FR of the sub/803 combo was the same as the 803 on their own (as measured with REW)
I was extremenly surprised by the results - allowing the subs to operate up to around 500Hz actually sounded as good as anything I've ever heard. Better than my older 800D2's, and the balance between treble, mid and bass was perfect, and the sounstage seemed absolutely immense.
So due to the high x-over of the subs, in effect the 2 bass drivers in my 803 are now completely redundant (I have now actually unplugged them) and I am only using the mid/treble.
Therefore I can't help thinking my 803's are wasted as I'm only using 2 of the 4 drivers, so am looking to build a pair of speakers to take care of mid/treble.
I had never considered building speakers before because I didn't want the hassle of designing passive x-overs, but using JRiver PC HDMI output with my Classe SSP pre-amp I have 8 channels with very high quality DACs to work with which I can tweak on the fly.
My issue however is that I am going to need multiple amps for active - I have read on many forums etc. that even cheap eBay T-amps sound surprising good if they only have to deal with a few octaves of the audio band and don't have to deal with high power and x-overs / difficult loads etc.
I currently have a pair of Classe 400W monos - which again are wasted just to drive my B&W mids, but that will be my current benchmark against a new active DIY setup.
So in order to replicate my 803 mid/treb, I am thinking of either;
o Scanspeak beryllium tweeter
o Accuton 5" ceramic mid dome
OR
o Scanspeak beryllium tweeter
o Volt 3" dome (ATC SM75-150 clone)
OR
o Scanspeak beryllium tweeter
o Scanspeak 12MU upper mid
o Scanspeak 18MU lower mid
(ie the troels illuminator 5 mid setup)
Illuminator-5
OR
Anything else that will come close to matching the B&M mid/diamond tweeter
I will start off using JRiver PC / Classe SSP for active filter with multiple amp modules to start with, but then may build passive x-overs once I'm 100% happy with frequencies and go back to my Classe monos, OR buy some active filters (eg minidsp or KMTech)
I apprciate this has been a big read!!....
....but I'd really appreciate advice on choice of drivers, and the merits of active setup (with cheaper DAC's and amps) vs passive x-overs (with £8,000 monos)
Any help advice greatly appreciated
I'd been happy until recently, where I "upgraded" from the 800D2 to the newer range 803D3.
To cut a long story short, I think the 803D3 are crap. What little they may be better in overall quality, the presentaion is overall poor. They sound more like bookshelf speakers - thin, flat soundstage, no sense of scale etc.
B&W claim the 803D3 are a step up from the 802D2 - but they are not.
To be fair to them, it is probably a result of the environment - my room measures 6x5x3m, adjoing a dining room of the same dimensions so the 803 might not be man enough.
Anyway, the most obvious solution is to upgrade to the bigger 802 or 800 to acheive the BIG and more balanced sound I am looking for. But to be honest I'm fed up of pouring 1000's and 1000's into overpriced commercial products. I'd probably need £6,000 just to change to the 802D3's with no guarantee I'd be happy
So in order to pinpoint what I don't like about my 803, I put my Classe SSP Sigma into 2.1 mode to engage my DIY 3kw 15" Sub. It didn't make a lot of difference, but the sense of scale did improve slightly as I increased the x-over up to 150Hz, although the sounstage started to warp in the direction of the sub.
So my next move was to build 2 x 12" Enimence LAB 12C subs in 350mm cubes, powerered by repurposing my Behringer iNuke 3000DSP amp.
Using the DSP of the Behringer, and DSP in my JRiver PC based media player I was able to raise the x-over between the subs and 803, whilst keeping the overall FR of the sub/803 combo was the same as the 803 on their own (as measured with REW)
I was extremenly surprised by the results - allowing the subs to operate up to around 500Hz actually sounded as good as anything I've ever heard. Better than my older 800D2's, and the balance between treble, mid and bass was perfect, and the sounstage seemed absolutely immense.
So due to the high x-over of the subs, in effect the 2 bass drivers in my 803 are now completely redundant (I have now actually unplugged them) and I am only using the mid/treble.
Therefore I can't help thinking my 803's are wasted as I'm only using 2 of the 4 drivers, so am looking to build a pair of speakers to take care of mid/treble.
I had never considered building speakers before because I didn't want the hassle of designing passive x-overs, but using JRiver PC HDMI output with my Classe SSP pre-amp I have 8 channels with very high quality DACs to work with which I can tweak on the fly.
My issue however is that I am going to need multiple amps for active - I have read on many forums etc. that even cheap eBay T-amps sound surprising good if they only have to deal with a few octaves of the audio band and don't have to deal with high power and x-overs / difficult loads etc.
I currently have a pair of Classe 400W monos - which again are wasted just to drive my B&W mids, but that will be my current benchmark against a new active DIY setup.
So in order to replicate my 803 mid/treb, I am thinking of either;
o Scanspeak beryllium tweeter
o Accuton 5" ceramic mid dome
OR
o Scanspeak beryllium tweeter
o Volt 3" dome (ATC SM75-150 clone)
OR
o Scanspeak beryllium tweeter
o Scanspeak 12MU upper mid
o Scanspeak 18MU lower mid
(ie the troels illuminator 5 mid setup)
Illuminator-5
OR
Anything else that will come close to matching the B&M mid/diamond tweeter
I will start off using JRiver PC / Classe SSP for active filter with multiple amp modules to start with, but then may build passive x-overs once I'm 100% happy with frequencies and go back to my Classe monos, OR buy some active filters (eg minidsp or KMTech)
I apprciate this has been a big read!!....
....but I'd really appreciate advice on choice of drivers, and the merits of active setup (with cheaper DAC's and amps) vs passive x-overs (with £8,000 monos)
Any help advice greatly appreciated
I strongly suggest the Klang Ton Nada kit.
NADA 2-Way Klang + Ton Kit Pair using Illuminator Drivers
I like the SS paper drivers a lot more than I like the Accuton ceramics. I find them warmer and much more musical.
If you know you are going to use them with a sub, I suggest you substitute a sealed cabinet, which will be much smaller, and give you better power handling. Be aware however that those tweets are VERY wide dispersion. They need room to the sides and behind or heavy room treatment.
Best,
E
NADA 2-Way Klang + Ton Kit Pair using Illuminator Drivers
I like the SS paper drivers a lot more than I like the Accuton ceramics. I find them warmer and much more musical.
If you know you are going to use them with a sub, I suggest you substitute a sealed cabinet, which will be much smaller, and give you better power handling. Be aware however that those tweets are VERY wide dispersion. They need room to the sides and behind or heavy room treatment.
Best,
E
This is quite similar to my story, although the drivers seem to be different, there are maybe some interesting takeaways.
What sources do you use and do you have a preamp?
I've also liked the B&W for a long time. Have had them for about 16 years. My last one, still in use is 804S. Significantly lower than the 803D3, but the learnings are likely applicable. I had a rel Storm sub, McIntosh MC275 amp, Lamm LL2 pre, nice CD player, thinking of going into vinyl. Following the simpler is better dogma and budget constrained.
To make it shorter: I ended up focusing on one source only and optimizing the system around that: a computer very optimized for audio, running playback but also including digital crossovers and digital room correction, thru USB to a multichannel DAC driving directly different amps driving speaker drivers directly. I have now 2 Rythmik 12" subs in heavy sealed DIY boxes (that trump the Rel any day and cost less), have taken out the crossover between the woofers in the 804S and have a pair of Hypex (class D) 400W amps driving the 2 woofers per side (have blocked the 804 vent tube), and still have the MC275 driving the midrange and tweeter section (the passive xo is still in). My beloved Lamm pre is gone. This system sounds so much better than the original one!
And I've been working on a DIY speaker to replace my 804S. Pair of 10" woofers per side in sealed boxes driven by the Hypex, a sensitive midrange driven by a 2A3 SET, and AMT tweeters also driven by another 2A3 SET. My experience convinced me an active system, when implemented like this and within my budget constraints, sounds a lot better than a passive.
The first key in my mind is what sources do you use? Converting analog to digital, process and then converting back would seem problematic to me. But I haven't tried it.
The big leap of faith is letting go the preamp. At least it was in my case. I went with a multichannel DAC, initially still used it as 2-channel and learned how to do the room correction and compared to having the purist DAC and preamp in the chain. It wasn't bad!
Then I ventured into having the subs as active channels: 4-channel system where 2 ch used for subs and 2 ch used for floorstanders.
Finally 6-channel: 2 ch for subs, 2 for woofers, 2 for midrange+tweeters. Took out the passive xo of the 804 woofers and implemented the DIY Hypex kits. You don't need expensive amps for this! In fact my Hypex amps will be concealed withing the midbass cabinet to reduce aesthetic clutter.
Maybe it is worth exploring this route for you? You will need to invest significant time to learn, do, get frustrated, figure it out, move forward. You will need to learn how to measure, and get a measurement mic. Not a large investment.
BTW, you can buy the FST midrange driver from B&W as spare part. It's a great driver and one I would use if it were more sensitive (2A3 amps are low power). Maybe a class-A amp directly driving these would be sweet, like a Nelson Pass First Watt SIT 1 or 2.
I don't know the drivers you list beyond reading about them here. What I would recommend is picking the midrange first, then the tweeter and midbasses. Get the right midrange and amp combo, and go from there. If you want to cross over as high as B&W does (which is fine), then you need a small midrange and small tweeter. If you want to xo lower then both can be larger. You also want to think about the dispersion pattern you want from your speaker.
There are so many variables that is easy to get frustrated and turn your back onto this great opportunity. But if interested I'm sure the members here will help you go in the right direction. Just like they helped me!
I hope this helps!
What sources do you use and do you have a preamp?
I've also liked the B&W for a long time. Have had them for about 16 years. My last one, still in use is 804S. Significantly lower than the 803D3, but the learnings are likely applicable. I had a rel Storm sub, McIntosh MC275 amp, Lamm LL2 pre, nice CD player, thinking of going into vinyl. Following the simpler is better dogma and budget constrained.
To make it shorter: I ended up focusing on one source only and optimizing the system around that: a computer very optimized for audio, running playback but also including digital crossovers and digital room correction, thru USB to a multichannel DAC driving directly different amps driving speaker drivers directly. I have now 2 Rythmik 12" subs in heavy sealed DIY boxes (that trump the Rel any day and cost less), have taken out the crossover between the woofers in the 804S and have a pair of Hypex (class D) 400W amps driving the 2 woofers per side (have blocked the 804 vent tube), and still have the MC275 driving the midrange and tweeter section (the passive xo is still in). My beloved Lamm pre is gone. This system sounds so much better than the original one!
And I've been working on a DIY speaker to replace my 804S. Pair of 10" woofers per side in sealed boxes driven by the Hypex, a sensitive midrange driven by a 2A3 SET, and AMT tweeters also driven by another 2A3 SET. My experience convinced me an active system, when implemented like this and within my budget constraints, sounds a lot better than a passive.
The first key in my mind is what sources do you use? Converting analog to digital, process and then converting back would seem problematic to me. But I haven't tried it.
The big leap of faith is letting go the preamp. At least it was in my case. I went with a multichannel DAC, initially still used it as 2-channel and learned how to do the room correction and compared to having the purist DAC and preamp in the chain. It wasn't bad!
Then I ventured into having the subs as active channels: 4-channel system where 2 ch used for subs and 2 ch used for floorstanders.
Finally 6-channel: 2 ch for subs, 2 for woofers, 2 for midrange+tweeters. Took out the passive xo of the 804 woofers and implemented the DIY Hypex kits. You don't need expensive amps for this! In fact my Hypex amps will be concealed withing the midbass cabinet to reduce aesthetic clutter.
Maybe it is worth exploring this route for you? You will need to invest significant time to learn, do, get frustrated, figure it out, move forward. You will need to learn how to measure, and get a measurement mic. Not a large investment.
BTW, you can buy the FST midrange driver from B&W as spare part. It's a great driver and one I would use if it were more sensitive (2A3 amps are low power). Maybe a class-A amp directly driving these would be sweet, like a Nelson Pass First Watt SIT 1 or 2.
I don't know the drivers you list beyond reading about them here. What I would recommend is picking the midrange first, then the tweeter and midbasses. Get the right midrange and amp combo, and go from there. If you want to cross over as high as B&W does (which is fine), then you need a small midrange and small tweeter. If you want to xo lower then both can be larger. You also want to think about the dispersion pattern you want from your speaker.
There are so many variables that is easy to get frustrated and turn your back onto this great opportunity. But if interested I'm sure the members here will help you go in the right direction. Just like they helped me!
I hope this helps!
Hi eriksquire,
I'll definitely use "subs", or at least lusing large drivers crossing over quite high because it seemed x-over higher seemed to yield the big scale sound I was after.
They are already sealed;
I'll probably design the mid/treb cabs to sit on top of the bass cab, but I'm still not sure whether the 18, 15 or 12MU scanspeak driver would be better given I'm crossing over high (500Hz). The B&W does sound great, but the mid/treb can't quite keep up with the 12" bass at higher volume, hence why I might even consider 18MU + 12MU??
Or mayb e the 3" Volt dome would be better?
Also I'm in the UK which rules out Madisound, but thanks for the info
I'll definitely use "subs", or at least lusing large drivers crossing over quite high because it seemed x-over higher seemed to yield the big scale sound I was after.
They are already sealed;
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I'll probably design the mid/treb cabs to sit on top of the bass cab, but I'm still not sure whether the 18, 15 or 12MU scanspeak driver would be better given I'm crossing over high (500Hz). The B&W does sound great, but the mid/treb can't quite keep up with the 12" bass at higher volume, hence why I might even consider 18MU + 12MU??
Or mayb e the 3" Volt dome would be better?
Also I'm in the UK which rules out Madisound, but thanks for the info
Thanks LewinskiH01 - a lot of great info!
I will probably keep my Classe SSP Sigma pre-amp, it is primarily for 2ch hifi, but can double up as a basic AV processor. Therefore I have 8 channels at my disposal which I will use to play around with x-over frequencies (I use JRiver which can output 8 configurable DSP'd channels LPCM via HDMI to my Classe).
Classe Sigma SSP AV Preamp Reviewed
I just need to get some additional amps to power the additional drivers if I do experiment with active because I only have a pair of Classe mono's at the moment.
My problem is that if I do utilise multiple channels of my Classe for 2ch music, then I'll come unstuck when watching movies becuase I'll need the Classe channels for AV duties for center + surround, (plus lose the DSP in JRiver as my movie source is an Android box running Plex).
Therefore once I have used JRiver with my Classe to work out the best x-over frequencies for music, I'll need a long term permanent solution. This will either be passive crossovers for the mid/treb, or analogue active (I have heard many say that something like miniDSP is a big comprimise on sound quality, plus as you say, analogue>digital>analogue doesn't make sense)
I think my best solution could be??
o my Behringer iNuke 3000DSP driving the bass cabs upto 500Hz,
o then active analogue x-overs + a pair of stereo valve amps driving the mid and treble
I could then use this setup for music and movies and wouldn't need to use JRiver to do the x-over or use multple channels of my Classe
I will probably keep my Classe SSP Sigma pre-amp, it is primarily for 2ch hifi, but can double up as a basic AV processor. Therefore I have 8 channels at my disposal which I will use to play around with x-over frequencies (I use JRiver which can output 8 configurable DSP'd channels LPCM via HDMI to my Classe).
Classe Sigma SSP AV Preamp Reviewed
I just need to get some additional amps to power the additional drivers if I do experiment with active because I only have a pair of Classe mono's at the moment.
My problem is that if I do utilise multiple channels of my Classe for 2ch music, then I'll come unstuck when watching movies becuase I'll need the Classe channels for AV duties for center + surround, (plus lose the DSP in JRiver as my movie source is an Android box running Plex).
Therefore once I have used JRiver with my Classe to work out the best x-over frequencies for music, I'll need a long term permanent solution. This will either be passive crossovers for the mid/treb, or analogue active (I have heard many say that something like miniDSP is a big comprimise on sound quality, plus as you say, analogue>digital>analogue doesn't make sense)
I think my best solution could be??
o my Behringer iNuke 3000DSP driving the bass cabs upto 500Hz,
o then active analogue x-overs + a pair of stereo valve amps driving the mid and treble
I could then use this setup for music and movies and wouldn't need to use JRiver to do the x-over or use multple channels of my Classe
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