I was thinking.....Hey LineSource, I m interested to hear your opinion for Dome+WG vs CD+WG
The initial design goals favored including room interaction directivity as produced by a high efficiency dome tweeter like the Satori TW29RN-4, or a dome tweeter with a very modest integrated wavguide like the Wavecor TW030WA12-8 or Morel CAT 378 for smooth directivity blending to an 8" midwoofer. Simple crossovers.
The dome tweeter on WG-30 non-equalized frequency response to 0...90° off-axis at 40 cm is significantly worst than a good dome tweeter alone. A complex crossover is required, so why not just use a compression driver on a larger waveguide for wider controlled directivity?
The EconoWave work demonstrated good SPL performance and directivity control with compression drivers on 8" - 12" wide waveguides. Excellent $13 - $15 waveguides for 1" CD are available. Very good $35 - $65 1" compression drivers are available. The passive crossover typically includes a capacitor in parallel with the L-pad to boost high frequencies.
That is interesting point LineSource, the goal is to keep everything simple, as far as my understanding goes, I did some research, read reviews and tried to look at different designs in pas few days and I certainly didn't read anything that share my bad experience with CD+Horns, so I m more open to this now, I m still hoping to go with TPL150H, we'll see
Thanks.
Thanks.
Good news !
Ok good news.
Had to share this before I start my weekend, I sent an email to AE about my order and they respond right away, TBH I did not expected that and truth be told they honestly pulled through this time and shipped the drivers right after, I will hopefully receive the drivers in next few days.
I have to thank them for they cooperation.
This is good news for anybody willing to build this in future and hopefully we will have more cooperation & support from AE.
Ok good news.
Had to share this before I start my weekend, I sent an email to AE about my order and they respond right away, TBH I did not expected that and truth be told they honestly pulled through this time and shipped the drivers right after, I will hopefully receive the drivers in next few days.
I have to thank them for they cooperation.
This is good news for anybody willing to build this in future and hopefully we will have more cooperation & support from AE.
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The WG300 may not give the smoothest high frequency response, but there are other waveguides out there that are better in this regard (such as the WG148). However, I don't understand why you think complex xovers are needed. I don't think a waveguide tweeter would by principle require a more complex xover than a plain dome tweeter.
Hi, sorry for the absents, I have been busy with work lately.
I did some research, and read good reviews about Seos 10 and 12, I wish they were aluminum but no one complained about "honk" sound or dip or spike in the sound.
I also look around tried to find some widely available candidates for CDs to match with Seos 10/12:
FaitalPRO HF104.
FaitalPRO HF107.
FaitalPRO HF109.
B&C DE250-8.
lets not just rule out Dome+WG148 at this point.
Please leave your opinion / suggestions and if you have experience with any of the mentioned optioned.
I did some research, and read good reviews about Seos 10 and 12, I wish they were aluminum but no one complained about "honk" sound or dip or spike in the sound.
I also look around tried to find some widely available candidates for CDs to match with Seos 10/12:
FaitalPRO HF104.
FaitalPRO HF107.
FaitalPRO HF109.
B&C DE250-8.
lets not just rule out Dome+WG148 at this point.
Please leave your opinion / suggestions and if you have experience with any of the mentioned optioned.
I'll see if I can order a pair of SEOS 10's and 12's to measure with me DE-250s.
Cheers,
Gable
I am in the dome + waveguide camp. If you ask me, compression drivers are made for PA, not domestic use. That's just my own personal opinion, which may not be the most meaningful argument.
I know this may be asking too much, but I'd like to see a direct comparison of harmonic distortion of the "best candidates" from the dome+waveguide and CD+horn camps, measured at the same ("domestic") SPL levels, using the same methods and test equipment. This might provide some more useful arguments to decide which way to go.
Matthias:
I agree, THD should be compared at same SPL for CD and dome. To be expected the THD of the CD driver will be lower, bacause of its higher sensitivity. From my side I have no experience with that.
Another important issue is the acoustic center alignment of a CD driver with horn and the midrange. A shallow horn seems to be recommended. Also for a DI which is not too high and fits well with the 8 inch midrange.
IMO, CD with horn can be interesting, because of its high sensitivity and more flat (but higher) directivity above 2 kHz. My expectation is a more easy playing sound than with the dome. I can be wrong, because I have no practical experience with this.
Also Beyma TPL-150H stays an interesting option, but expensive.
Again we have to make two speaker versions on this point.
I agree, THD should be compared at same SPL for CD and dome. To be expected the THD of the CD driver will be lower, bacause of its higher sensitivity. From my side I have no experience with that.
Another important issue is the acoustic center alignment of a CD driver with horn and the midrange. A shallow horn seems to be recommended. Also for a DI which is not too high and fits well with the 8 inch midrange.
IMO, CD with horn can be interesting, because of its high sensitivity and more flat (but higher) directivity above 2 kHz. My expectation is a more easy playing sound than with the dome. I can be wrong, because I have no practical experience with this.
Also Beyma TPL-150H stays an interesting option, but expensive.
Again we have to make two speaker versions on this point
.Looked in more detail to the acoustical center of a horn loaded tweeter.
The Seos waveguides are all more than 70 mm deep. Most of them even 90 – 120 mm. For example, I measured an Eton 8 inch woofer and compared its acoustic center with a Scanspeak Be tweeter, it was relative 30 mm behind. So, the absolute acoustic center of that 8 inch is about 35 – 40 mm behind the front baffle. About the same value applies to the AE TD8M. Combining such woofer with a Seos loaded tweeter, flush mounted with the front baffle, it is not possible to make an acceptable phase aligning with a passive filter. Looking to a Monacor WG300 waveguide, it is 32 mm deep. Combined with an 8 inch woofer it results in almost perfect acoustic center aligning.
So, let us discuss first how to solve this acoustical center offset issue with deep tweeter horns. If there are very swallow horn types, that can be a solution. I don’t know them.
Also the Beyma TPL-150H is 80 mm deep.
More and more I have the impression that a horn tweeter is intended to be used with a horn loaded midrange too. Or to be used with digital filters, where the acoustical center offset can be compensated.
The Seos waveguides are all more than 70 mm deep. Most of them even 90 – 120 mm. For example, I measured an Eton 8 inch woofer and compared its acoustic center with a Scanspeak Be tweeter, it was relative 30 mm behind. So, the absolute acoustic center of that 8 inch is about 35 – 40 mm behind the front baffle. About the same value applies to the AE TD8M. Combining such woofer with a Seos loaded tweeter, flush mounted with the front baffle, it is not possible to make an acceptable phase aligning with a passive filter. Looking to a Monacor WG300 waveguide, it is 32 mm deep. Combined with an 8 inch woofer it results in almost perfect acoustic center aligning.
So, let us discuss first how to solve this acoustical center offset issue with deep tweeter horns. If there are very swallow horn types, that can be a solution. I don’t know them.
Also the Beyma TPL-150H is 80 mm deep.
More and more I have the impression that a horn tweeter is intended to be used with a horn loaded midrange too. Or to be used with digital filters, where the acoustical center offset can be compensated.
mm, interesting, the tweeter AC behind the woofer should be the same as if it's front of the woofer, in HHH Calpamos, the horn is 239mm deep and way behind the woofer.
Humble Homemade Hifi - Calpamos
Calpamos has the same approach to what we are doing here, HHH uses pro drivers for a beast of home HIFI system, using a very deep throat horn was a bold move but hey I bet he know more about this stuff than I am
Humble Homemade Hifi - Calpamos
Calpamos has the same approach to what we are doing here, HHH uses pro drivers for a beast of home HIFI system, using a very deep throat horn was a bold move but hey I bet he know more about this stuff than I am
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Hey Gable
good to hear from you, maybe we can order just one for measurements ?hi mbrennwa
, I was also in for Dome+WG just because of my lack of experience with them but this can be interesting and TBH we have more choices. and I have to say I do not agree that horns are just for PA, they just used in PA systems because of their high sensitivity, I doubt anyone would ever use a 800-900$ Radian CD in a PA system and also JBL is still using horns (I know theirs are wayy more complicated from regular ones) in their high end mastering monitors.again my vote was dome+WG but I m more open to try CDs now
The crossover frequency is 650 Hz in this system and the acoustic center offset becomes less critical for a lower crossover frequency. But still there wiil be phase misalignment in this system.mm, interesting, the tweeter AC behind the woofer should be the same as if it's front of the woofer, in HHH Calpamos, the horn is 239mm deep and way behind the woofer.
Humble Homemade Hifi - Calpamos
Calpamos has the same approach to what we are doing here, HHH uses pro drivers for a beast of home HIFI system, using a very deep throat horn was a bold move but hey I bet he know more about this stuff than I am
Technically, I am not in favor of such a design. Maybe the frequency response can be designed flat, but there is a timing problem, because high frequencies are always coming too late.
mm, interesting, the tweeter AC behind the woofer should be the same as if it's front of the woofer, in HHH Calpamos, the horn is 239mm deep and way behind the woofer.
Humble Homemade Hifi - Calpamos
Calpamos has the same approach to what we are doing here, HHH uses pro drivers for a beast of home HIFI system, using a very deep throat horn was a bold move but hey I bet he know more about this stuff than I am
I like how he designed the cabinet. That style is a very easy build, even with fairly basic tools.
Hey Gable
I thought about that, but I would like to order at least 1 each of the 10 and 12. I'm waiting to hear back from them at the moment about availability.
Cheers,
Gable
Hi Everyone. I figured I should probably update here to keep communication open. I was unsure that any of our TD woofers had been chosen as it seemed they were, then they weren't, then they were, and now possibly they aren't again. I realize there is frustration that sometimes I cannot reply to messages right away and there are delays in shipping. Also realize that I spend a ridiculous amount of time supporting the DIY community and as I have said before, this is the primary reason for lead times being longer. I have been in the office for 5 hours and so far today I have sent out dozens of emails all answering in depth questions from DIY users. Whether it is suggesting the best woofers to be used to provide low end support to Magnepan's, woofers to cross over to JBL 2348 horns in a 2 way system, or helping someone being able to measure response and design an open baffle system with the Dipole woofers and TPL150H, I try to get to every email. This means a lot of times the in depth emails like the one that Paul sent originally take a little longer to get to, but every email gets a genuine response. You will not get this kind of in depth support from anyone else though.
In regards to current lead times, back on October 11, I had stated that the TD8M's are in usually kept in stock. Had the order come in at that time, I had space on the build tables for the next two weeks and the TD15X could have been built within days. However, that post alone proved enough to sell through the entire stock of TD8M within the next week. All of which were shipped immediately. Then a large custom order from an OEM customer came in requiring custom machined Dipole top plates to be finished in polished chrome and polished copper. It was incredibly time consuming and took about 3 weeks alone for the machining.
So when Aatto's order finally came in off the website, I was unaware it was even part of this project. I had to build more TD8M's in addition to the TD15X's but the order that already came in had to be finished first. Had a his order come in first, it would have also had priority over the OEM order. I never bump the small quantity DIY orders to fill the larger OEM orders like most manufacturers do. As I finished up their custom machining and sent the parts off to be plated, I ended up getting very sick. Monday was my first full day of work in about 10 days. I have not missed that much work in my entire life. Jessica was also out sick and has only been able to work a very limited amount between trips to the hospital and constant doctor visits. So we are catching up now and shipped a lot this week already. I was able to finish up the order of Aatto's woofers in my limited time last week and sent them Friday.
Going forward, if there is consensus on the drivers being used I can stock them here. It may take a bit to gauge how much interest there is and how many need to be stocked to keep them in inventory, but I will do my best for that. The DIY market is very different than working with OEM designs. I realize people in DIY want to make quick decisions, get what they want right away and complete a design very soon. This is far different than the rest of the industry which plans far in advance, may talk about a design for 6 months before ordering drivers, then spend the next 6 months developing and tweaking a system. They order and stock the drivers there in the quantity they expect to need. With DIY there is no set quantity or even set models I may need. This makes it much more of a challenge to quickly meet the demand.
Also realize I recently waited 4 months for an order of 18" drivers from Faital as they were out of stock in the US. This is very common with the pro audio drivers because the DIY interest can quickly spike and cause drivers to sell out. Compare this 4 month delay to 4 weeks in this case where there were some specific circumstances that made the delivery take longer.
I am here to do whatever I can to help support the project as it goes forward.
In regards to current lead times, back on October 11, I had stated that the TD8M's are in usually kept in stock. Had the order come in at that time, I had space on the build tables for the next two weeks and the TD15X could have been built within days. However, that post alone proved enough to sell through the entire stock of TD8M within the next week. All of which were shipped immediately. Then a large custom order from an OEM customer came in requiring custom machined Dipole top plates to be finished in polished chrome and polished copper. It was incredibly time consuming and took about 3 weeks alone for the machining.
So when Aatto's order finally came in off the website, I was unaware it was even part of this project. I had to build more TD8M's in addition to the TD15X's but the order that already came in had to be finished first. Had a his order come in first, it would have also had priority over the OEM order. I never bump the small quantity DIY orders to fill the larger OEM orders like most manufacturers do. As I finished up their custom machining and sent the parts off to be plated, I ended up getting very sick. Monday was my first full day of work in about 10 days. I have not missed that much work in my entire life. Jessica was also out sick and has only been able to work a very limited amount between trips to the hospital and constant doctor visits. So we are catching up now and shipped a lot this week already. I was able to finish up the order of Aatto's woofers in my limited time last week and sent them Friday.
Going forward, if there is consensus on the drivers being used I can stock them here. It may take a bit to gauge how much interest there is and how many need to be stocked to keep them in inventory, but I will do my best for that. The DIY market is very different than working with OEM designs. I realize people in DIY want to make quick decisions, get what they want right away and complete a design very soon. This is far different than the rest of the industry which plans far in advance, may talk about a design for 6 months before ordering drivers, then spend the next 6 months developing and tweaking a system. They order and stock the drivers there in the quantity they expect to need. With DIY there is no set quantity or even set models I may need. This makes it much more of a challenge to quickly meet the demand.
Also realize I recently waited 4 months for an order of 18" drivers from Faital as they were out of stock in the US. This is very common with the pro audio drivers because the DIY interest can quickly spike and cause drivers to sell out. Compare this 4 month delay to 4 weeks in this case where there were some specific circumstances that made the delivery take longer.
I am here to do whatever I can to help support the project as it goes forward.
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