as of now AE website has 10x TD8M ready to ship in stock. we will see how my experience goes w AE.
That was my thought as well when I suggested the Satori TW29BN-B-8 before Aatto said it was too expensive.
I believe we've allocated a somewhat large proportion of the target driver price to the woofer and midrange, which is why we are trying to keep the tweeter price in check.
Yes Paul, the Faital drivers exhibit some resonant behaviour around ca 20hz, this is most likely because of the parameters and the loading is below fs, it is not a problem for me at all when this behaviour is pushed so low in the spectrum, because I can barely hear 20hz at all, let alone if there is an issue with delay or not.
20hz wavelength is about 17 meters or so, and ~30ms delay is less than one wavelength (ca 50ms?) at 20hz. Not trying to bagatellize the issue, but this is exactly the reason I wanted to push resonant behaviour below 30hz, because it will most likely be inaudible. It is also below tuning frequency, I seriously doubt you can perceive it in real life.
The AE TD15X has low group delay because it can not work efficiently in the box and struggles against the design. Personally I blame the low mechanical resistance, but all the parameters work together. The mechanical resistance is part of why you get such low fs, but it demands a much bigger box to be effective. The AE TD15M might be a better choice for this, as I can not understand who will feed this speaker with several hundred watts of power, there should be no need for the high xmax the TD15X provides, and the high xmax value is also wasted, because the box is not optimal for the TD15X.
Edit:
Shortening the port to 33cm works out nicely for the TD15X, but then it goes flat to 40hz and there's no sound under 30hz probably.
20hz wavelength is about 17 meters or so, and ~30ms delay is less than one wavelength (ca 50ms?) at 20hz. Not trying to bagatellize the issue, but this is exactly the reason I wanted to push resonant behaviour below 30hz, because it will most likely be inaudible. It is also below tuning frequency, I seriously doubt you can perceive it in real life.
The AE TD15X has low group delay because it can not work efficiently in the box and struggles against the design. Personally I blame the low mechanical resistance, but all the parameters work together. The mechanical resistance is part of why you get such low fs, but it demands a much bigger box to be effective. The AE TD15M might be a better choice for this, as I can not understand who will feed this speaker with several hundred watts of power, there should be no need for the high xmax the TD15X provides, and the high xmax value is also wasted, because the box is not optimal for the TD15X.
Edit:
Shortening the port to 33cm works out nicely for the TD15X, but then it goes flat to 40hz and there's no sound under 30hz probably.
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Kaffimann,
I can follow your way of thinking, you like to make a low loss tuning at low frequency. You have a point that the Rms of the TD15X is higher, almost a factor 2.
Do you have experience with the sound of such system, I mean the one like with the Faital?
Have you checked if the F6 and F10 of your and my simulations are about the same? Just to evaluate my Leap BR simulation. It is rather difficult to have a good view on the cabinet and port loss settings in Leap.
I can follow your way of thinking, you like to make a low loss tuning at low frequency. You have a point that the Rms of the TD15X is higher, almost a factor 2.
Do you have experience with the sound of such system, I mean the one like with the Faital?
Have you checked if the F6 and F10 of your and my simulations are about the same? Just to evaluate my Leap BR simulation. It is rather difficult to have a good view on the cabinet and port loss settings in Leap.
This here is what I am listening to every single day. Not quite as good as the faital, but comparable.
This is what it measures like using only 5 bands of EQ and no xo, both left and right channels in-room.
THD + N is measured at 1.5%/ca 13.5hz, which is the highest number before the spl rolls off.
You can have a look in my dusty thread.
Hi all,
this thread is very interesting for me - thank you all for your time and effort.
I am in a very similar situation: I want to build a 3-way with 15"/8"/tweeter. It should have 8 Ohm minimum and excellent sensivity - for my tube amp. SQ is my primary concern. The design is almost complete (in my brain). But the bass chassis is not finally selected.
The vented woofer should get approx. 120l (more is possible but not welcome).
I have to agree, the Faital PRO 15FH500-8 is one of the most interesting. And I want to bring the 18-Sound 15LW1500 into play, it calculates almost identical. And the Faital Pro 15PR400.
All three do fit in your project.
There are some good woofers out there, but eighter they need a very large cabinet, or sensivity is too low, or they do not play deep enough - you certainly know that.
reg.,
Bernhard
this thread is very interesting for me - thank you all for your time and effort.
I am in a very similar situation: I want to build a 3-way with 15"/8"/tweeter. It should have 8 Ohm minimum and excellent sensivity - for my tube amp. SQ is my primary concern. The design is almost complete (in my brain). But the bass chassis is not finally selected.
The vented woofer should get approx. 120l (more is possible but not welcome).
I have to agree, the Faital PRO 15FH500-8 is one of the most interesting. And I want to bring the 18-Sound 15LW1500 into play, it calculates almost identical. And the Faital Pro 15PR400.
All three do fit in your project.
There are some good woofers out there, but eighter they need a very large cabinet, or sensivity is too low, or they do not play deep enough - you certainly know that.
reg.,
Bernhard
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Nice! Almost the same BR system as the one we have in mind now.
Did you try also a higher tuning frequency with that speaker to compare with, more B4?
Until now it's just theory, but I tend to tune it in between, maybe 28 - 32 Hz. We should test it in room. It definitely can be, that different room need different setups - a nice bonus of DIY. The port must be variable, at least for the test.
Would you mind to have a look at the 18 Sound 15W750 too? It is very loud, but the setup will not be as school teaches us. 15W750
Would you mind to have a look at the 18 Sound 15W750 too? It is very loud, but the setup will not be as school teaches us. 15W750
Paul, I was wringing my slow and stupid brain for so long trying to understand why all the bass reflex boxes I'd heard sounded like crap, and after being through several different iterations of various OB, TH, T-TQWT, BR, TL, etc etc solutions, that left me wondering if it is possible to get some of the OB/Closed box magic in a TL-inspired BR type solution, but with more extension, and using the room more to a benefit than experiencing it as an issue.
Generalization of some basic design types follows:
OB: Difficult to place in a room, little bass but tight.
Closed; Little bass, highly varying room loading.
TH: Goes impressively deep, but has issues with response and delay.
TL: Can sound really sweet, but a bit fiddly to "get right".
T-TQWT: Tighter and more well behaved than TH, but still not good enough.
All designs have the potential to sound good, it is just what kind of compromises you are willing to go for.
IMHO: A B4 type box will very rarely do bass properly.
So far my personal preference is the more relaxed and more extended roll-off previously posted. It sort of sounds almost as tight as a good and well eq'd OB setup, but more effortless when making deep bass, and easier to have in a room.
In two words: it sounds effortless, and detailed, at any part of the intended frequency band.
Sorry about the rant.
Generalization of some basic design types follows:
OB: Difficult to place in a room, little bass but tight.
Closed; Little bass, highly varying room loading.
TH: Goes impressively deep, but has issues with response and delay.
TL: Can sound really sweet, but a bit fiddly to "get right".
T-TQWT: Tighter and more well behaved than TH, but still not good enough.
All designs have the potential to sound good, it is just what kind of compromises you are willing to go for.
IMHO: A B4 type box will very rarely do bass properly.
So far my personal preference is the more relaxed and more extended roll-off previously posted. It sort of sounds almost as tight as a good and well eq'd OB setup, but more effortless when making deep bass, and easier to have in a room.
In two words: it sounds effortless, and detailed, at any part of the intended frequency band.
Sorry about the rant.
Bernhard,
We already looked to this driver. It needs a large cabinet. In 175 L and tuned at 39Hz, it has a B4 response, F3 = 39 Hz. You can tune it lower also, for more low frequency extension. But not suitable for volumes around 120 L.
Kaffimann,
This is the difference you are talking about.
As an example this is the 18Sound 15W750 in 175 L tuned at 39Hz (B4) and at 24 Hz (extended) on infinite baffle. Like you say also, with the B4 there is a 4th order fall off below FB which results in a difference of 12 dB less SPL at 20 Hz for the B4. But I can understand that people have to experience such differences themselves, before they believe you. I play with a closed system at home, also modified from BR B4 to closed system.
We already looked to this driver. It needs a large cabinet. In 175 L and tuned at 39Hz, it has a B4 response, F3 = 39 Hz. You can tune it lower also, for more low frequency extension. But not suitable for volumes around 120 L.
Kaffimann,
This is the difference you are talking about.
As an example this is the 18Sound 15W750 in 175 L tuned at 39Hz (B4) and at 24 Hz (extended) on infinite baffle. Like you say also, with the B4 there is a 4th order fall off below FB which results in a difference of 12 dB less SPL at 20 Hz for the B4. But I can understand that people have to experience such differences themselves, before they believe you. I play with a closed system at home, also modified from BR B4 to closed system.
But it's not only the spl graph that changes. The reason why closed box and OB sounds so nice is the low delay and phase variations, and most resonances are not of concern because in the closed box they often lose the fight against the dampening material, in the Ideal OB there is nothing to cause resonance to begin with. But good bass from OB and most closed boxes are often heavily dependant on eq and power.
What is easy to see in that SPL graph you just provided is the lack of output compared to the B4 alignment. What you do not see is everything else that makes the sound much more detailed, not too far from the quality of OB/Closed. It also benefits from some eq, as do most anything else, but it's enough to just use a relaxed shelf to pad down the top a little bit, room modes are not excited to quite the same degree, in my case they even out more or less flat after summing left/right differences, and there is no need for big power in normal listening.
What is easy to see in that SPL graph you just provided is the lack of output compared to the B4 alignment. What you do not see is everything else that makes the sound much more detailed, not too far from the quality of OB/Closed. It also benefits from some eq, as do most anything else, but it's enough to just use a relaxed shelf to pad down the top a little bit, room modes are not excited to quite the same degree, in my case they even out more or less flat after summing left/right differences, and there is no need for big power in normal listening.
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Hi Paul & KaffiMann,
thank you for your reply. Don't get me wrong - I agree with you. The difference in SPL below 40 Hz is significant to mee, too. You do not have to convince me.
I compared the Faital Pro 15FH500 vs the 18Sound 15W750, both in 120L and the Faital goes a little deeper (1.5dB@30Hz, but the 18 Sound is around 3dB louder below 100 Hz, in a low tuned enclosure. (both at 2,83V)
I never talked about BR B4 - it does not make sense for a 15" in a domestic Hi-Fi setup, not if you want to listen to real music.
thank you for your reply. Don't get me wrong - I agree with you. The difference in SPL below 40 Hz is significant to mee, too. You do not have to convince me.
I compared the Faital Pro 15FH500 vs the 18Sound 15W750, both in 120L and the Faital goes a little deeper (1.5dB@30Hz, but the 18 Sound is around 3dB louder below 100 Hz, in a low tuned enclosure. (both at 2,83V)
I never talked about BR B4 - it does not make sense for a 15" in a domestic Hi-Fi setup, not if you want to listen to real music.
Then you have to make the cabinet again 55 cm deep.
In the plot TD15X in 150 L tuned at 24 Hz (blue) and in 170 L tuned at 22 Hz (green).
Not so much gain, but there is below 30 Hz. See difference in the plot.
I do not see the point of commenting further. It should work fine, and the sound should be quite good, but probably not much happening under 30hz.
Have to build it and measure.
Aatto:
There is nothing wrong with the TD15X, it is very good, and the GD is lower than the other drivers, mostly because the box is too small and the driver is far away from pushing any limits.
Edit:
What was the confusing part?
Have to build it and measure.
Aatto:
There is nothing wrong with the TD15X, it is very good, and the GD is lower than the other drivers, mostly because the box is too small and the driver is far away from pushing any limits.
Edit:
What was the confusing part?
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