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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Open Source "Tower XL"
Open Source "Tower XL"
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Old 5th November 2018, 02:52 PM   #521
Aatto is offline Aatto  United States
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Open Source "Tower XL"
Thank you Paul for detailed sims.

looks like either one of the three options (Dome+WG , CD+Horn , AMT), with some pros and cons for each will serve the purpose eventually.
lets look at some cons for each, it might help:

-Dome+WG: Not many options for 8ohm 92db+ tweeters, Probably need custom made wave guide.

-CD+Horn: More direct sound, not easy to find measurements for sim.

-AMT: Expensive.

I have thought about this, My first personal choice (based on my taste not experience) is Dome+Waveguide, the problem here is if we can't find a suitable waveguide, designing one and building one can introduce a lot of delay to the project and we may need to avoid that to keep the interest,.

Also after some more thoughts, I m more open to CDs, since if I want to listen to something i sit in the sweet spot and if I walk around means I m not listening much.
so the more direct sound is not a deal breaker for me.

as for now I have to wait, if things go well I might have the option for the Beyma AMT as well.
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Last edited by Aatto; 5th November 2018 at 02:54 PM.
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Old 5th November 2018, 02:58 PM   #522
Aatto is offline Aatto  United States
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Open Source "Tower XL"
Quote:
Originally Posted by KaffiMann View Post
Found some measurements of the Beyma TPL-150H.
Click the image to open in full size.

I have never actually heard these myself, but based on who has heard it and what they think of it. I'd say it's probably a good option for this type of build. With or without horn/waveguide.
thanks Kaffimann. do you have the TPL150 as well ? (without the horn)

I tried to find some reviews and everyone seems to like this driver very much!
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Old 5th November 2018, 05:33 PM   #523
vlv81 is offline vlv81  New Zealand
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Would the Eminence APT 50 OR ASD 1001 with matching tweeter lens from ZU Audio be any good? ASD:1001 Tweeter Pair | Zu Audio
Zu Machined Tweeter Lens Small V3 | Zu Audio
The lens says usable bandwidth down to 4k, so possibly not.

Apologies if it's a ludicrous suggestion from a new
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Old 5th November 2018, 07:51 PM   #524
Paul Vancluysen is offline Paul Vancluysen  Belgium
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To get an idea how off axis responses will look like, combining midrange AE TD8M with different types of tweeters, I have compared 15, 30 and 45 degrees horizontal off axis responses, normalized to the on axis response.

- AE TD 8M - measurement AE (green color)
- Dome tweeter without waveguide - Satori TW29BN (blue color)
- Dome tweeter with waveguide - Monacor DT300-WG300 (yellow color).
- CD tweeter with horn - 18Sound XT1086 + ND1075 (pink color)
- Beyma TPL-150H AMT with horn off axis measurements found by Kaffiman (black color)

Looking to the off axis response of the midrange below 2 kHz and the off axis response of a particular tweeter above 2 kHz, gives an idea how the off axis responses of the total speaker with X-over at 2kHz are expected to look like.

The combi AE TD8M - dome tweeter with waveguide (Monacor) is expected to be most flat off axis, especially if looking at 45 degrees.

AMT without waveguide not considered here, because it can be compared with a dome without waveguide in the single horizontal plane.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 15deg H AETD8M vs. tweeters Knipsel.JPG (219.9 KB, 308 views)
File Type: jpg 30deg H AETD8M vs. tweeters Knipsel.JPG (227.0 KB, 313 views)
File Type: jpg 45deg H AETD8M vs. tweeters Knipsel.JPG (227.6 KB, 271 views)
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Old 5th November 2018, 08:23 PM   #525
KaffiMann is offline KaffiMann  Norway
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Open Source "Tower XL"
Aatto, my Google-Fu has failed me so far. In the search of decent measurements for the TPL-150 at least.

Been looking around a bit, the Morel CAT 378 is interesting.
The Tang Band 28-1582S also looks "ok" but the only off axis measurements I could find was low resolution with non-specific dividers.

Most tweeters that look promising from Scan-Speak and Seas are 6 ohm, but I just don't see the problem with this. something like for instance the Scan-Speak H2606/920000 looks nice enough, gives 95db/2.83v on axis, and it's quite cheap.

But personally I'd like to see the Seas 29TFF/W get some love, reasonably priced and real smooth. Value for money.
The Seas 27TFFC and 27TFF also look quite nice, but slightly lower sensitivity.

Want to dabble in Aluminium/Magnesium alloys? then Seas 27TBC/G got you covered.
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Last edited by KaffiMann; 5th November 2018 at 08:32 PM.
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Old 5th November 2018, 08:40 PM   #526
EarlK is offline EarlK  Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Vancluysen View Post
<<<<snip>>>>

The combi AE TD8M - dome tweeter with waveguide (Monacor) is expected to be most flat off axis, especially if looking at 45 degrees.

AMT without waveguide not considered here, because it can be compared with a dome without waveguide in the single horizontal plane.
When setting a visual criteria ( as a blueprint to follow ) that will help predict good imaging, it's my belief that if one gets the horizontal polars ( lines ) to evenly track each other ( without crossing ) for at least one decade worth of bandwidth ( say 700hz to 7K ) then the designer is more than half-way there.

Here are 2 wave-guide examples to illustrate.

(A) The listening axis that I would choose from this first example ( for toe-in purposes, to find the best imaging ) would be 30 or the 37.5 deg trace ( yellow or green ).
FYI, this was raw data and not EQed.

Click the image to open in full size.

(B) The following is nice but it's unfortunate that this horn isn't larger ( to go lower down to 700hz for instance ).
- If it was and those traces were separated evenly down to a lower frequency ( such as 700hz ), this horn would stand to out-perform the first example ( imaging wise ).
- This waveguide would need to be mated/blended with a 15" woofers output ( that's already starting to narrow it's polars prior to 1000hz ) to extract it's best performance ( imaging wise ).

Click the image to open in full size.




PS: I'm not suggesting using large wave-guides with compression drivers ( etc ) for this project, I'm just showing the polar response that would punch my ticket ( and somewhat challenging the designers to establish and meet a similar criteria ).

Last edited by EarlK; 5th November 2018 at 08:53 PM.
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Old 5th November 2018, 09:45 PM   #527
Brett is offline Brett
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vlv81 View Post
Would the Eminence APT 50 OR ASD 1001 with matching tweeter lens from ZU Audio be any good? ASD:1001 Tweeter Pair | Zu Audio
Zu Machined Tweeter Lens Small V3 | Zu Audio
The lens says usable bandwidth down to 4k, so possibly not.
They're not particularly good drivers and the flare is too shallow to give any useful loading or directivity. I would never believe anything Zu said without independent measurements corroborating their claims.
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Old 5th November 2018, 10:19 PM   #528
vlv81 is offline vlv81  New Zealand
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Cool. Thanks Brett
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Old 7th November 2018, 02:39 AM   #529
Aatto is offline Aatto  United States
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Open Source &quot;Tower XL&quot;
Hello, looks a little grim around here
sorry I have been occupied with work lately, Still no news from AE ! it's about 20 days now... this is not encouraging.
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Old 7th November 2018, 12:37 PM   #530
EarlK is offline EarlK  Canada
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Here's a little study showing the sort of polars one can expect when an 8" woofer is mated to a shallow waveguide ( driven by a small compression driver ).

Open Source &quot;Tower XL&quot;-indoorsv11crossover050d-1-png

Here are a couple of pics of the actual waveguide ( NLA, I believe ).

Open Source &quot;Tower XL&quot;-dws-774c-jpg
Open Source &quot;Tower XL&quot;-dws-774b-jpg


And finally to give an idea of frontal size, a shot of the prototype DIYSG product ( which was discontinued some years back ) .

Open Source &quot;Tower XL&quot;-dsc4421sm-jpg


Attached Images
File Type: png indoorsv11crossover050d (1).png (46.1 KB, 239 views)
File Type: jpg dws-774c.jpg (24.6 KB, 236 views)
File Type: jpg dws-774b.jpg (26.0 KB, 233 views)
File Type: jpg dsc4421sm.jpg (141.1 KB, 237 views)
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