it is not a waste of time and you brought up a good point. Now that I have better understanding I agree with your proposal, it certainly works better for a sub application and since we are crossing low this makes sense.
besides as Paul mentioned we can go either way (B4 or extended) in same cab size ( just the port length would be different) and should not effect crossover much. count me in.
as long as we are running it with normal listening levels it should not be a problem, I did the same thing to my 60w SB acoustic woofer and at normal listening levels you won't notice much excursion, with this pro drivers even at party level we are not pushing the speaker so we should be fine. I can do a quick sim on this.
Edit: saw that you already did it
thank you Paul
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Just a small highlight:
Considering the same cab volume, while the por length is increased, at fixed corss section area, the port volume will increase so the Vb in this case needs to be reduced proportionally.
B4: Higher Vb and shorter Port length
Extended: Lower Vb and longer Port length
To respect both, probably Paul will need to pick up the worst case to define cab volume/size.
thanks that is a good point, although a few liter different is not going to make a significant effect on the response, but we can measure it down and have two different size cabinets if needed.
Realize the measurement on the left was from a totally different driver, 8 years ago. They were never added to the website and sold only in limited quantity. The TD6M use a different cone material, spider, frame, and coil. This is from the recent production.
hey John,
Yeah that is what we figured since all the bad measurements were from couple years back and since then the basket changed and also haven't seen any recent complains about the dip.
But because of the long waiting time for manufacturer to build each driver we decided to go the other way and start looking somewhere else, I have not updated the first post yet but we have very promising candidates for LF driver same goes for midrange
Yeah that is what we figured since all the bad measurements were from couple years back and since then the basket changed and also haven't seen any recent complains about the dip.
But because of the long waiting time for manufacturer to build each driver we decided to go the other way and start looking somewhere else, I have not updated the first post yet but we have very promising candidates for LF driver same goes for midrange
Hi Paul,
I apologize for not getting to your email sooner. I was out both Monday and Friday last week. That meant trying to squeeze five 10-12 hour days of work into only days and I did not have time to get to many emails. I did get a reply to you now.
Aatto,
a few things to consider regarding the lead times. For about 3 years now I have been running lead times of about 2 weeks on standard woofers. The TD15X and TD6M or TD8M would be within that realm. Right now it is about 10 days. This could of course be affected by a larger OEM order, but I try to still keep some of the smaller quantity DIY orders going out the door while doing larger orders. Typically I stock the TD6M and TD8M. Also if there was demand for the TD15X I could stock a quantity of 6-10 of those as well. I currently stock Dipole15-D16 here.
You will typically find other drivers in stock regularly from the likes of B&C, Faital, BMS, etc at Parts Express or others. However, if there is a shift in demand when introducing a kit like this, it can be very likely that they sell out due to the increased demand and long times in the supply chain. If they go out of stock it could take 3-4 months for the next container to come in. This is chance of a long period of no availability. I buy drivers from Faital for some other systems myself. I recently placed an order at the beginning of June and waited until the end of August for one of their standard 15" drivers and some very common 6" to come in. In the case of the TD woofers, I almost always have the parts in stock so that does not happen. You will also see that the resume for those using the TD and Dipole drivers keeps growing with more and more ultra high-end speakers. Most all of them order on an as needed basis. Because of the short 2 week lead time they don't buy them and stock them directly.
I apologize for not getting to your email sooner. I was out both Monday and Friday last week. That meant trying to squeeze five 10-12 hour days of work into only days and I did not have time to get to many emails. I did get a reply to you now.
Aatto,
a few things to consider regarding the lead times. For about 3 years now I have been running lead times of about 2 weeks on standard woofers. The TD15X and TD6M or TD8M would be within that realm. Right now it is about 10 days. This could of course be affected by a larger OEM order, but I try to still keep some of the smaller quantity DIY orders going out the door while doing larger orders. Typically I stock the TD6M and TD8M. Also if there was demand for the TD15X I could stock a quantity of 6-10 of those as well. I currently stock Dipole15-D16 here.
You will typically find other drivers in stock regularly from the likes of B&C, Faital, BMS, etc at Parts Express or others. However, if there is a shift in demand when introducing a kit like this, it can be very likely that they sell out due to the increased demand and long times in the supply chain. If they go out of stock it could take 3-4 months for the next container to come in. This is chance of a long period of no availability. I buy drivers from Faital for some other systems myself. I recently placed an order at the beginning of June and waited until the end of August for one of their standard 15" drivers and some very common 6" to come in. In the case of the TD woofers, I almost always have the parts in stock so that does not happen. You will also see that the resume for those using the TD and Dipole drivers keeps growing with more and more ultra high-end speakers. Most all of them order on an as needed basis. Because of the short 2 week lead time they don't buy them and stock them directly.
Hello John, I heard your name around here but didn't realize you are John from AE
it is good to hear from you here and it certainly encouraging to hear that you have much shorter lead time on your products, AE drivers were our first choice for this project but unfortunately since we did not hear back we went the other way, and also since this project targets more novice builders like me what we read on other forums (long waiting periods) was not what we were expecting, but again hearing from you is certainly encouraging.
unfortunately a lot of effort has been made to find replacement drivers and I m not sure how would others following this project and the design team would feel about changing the course again, this is certainly need to be discussed.
I would like to ask other members following this project to hear their opinion about which direction to go.
it is good to hear from you here and it certainly encouraging to hear that you have much shorter lead time on your products, AE drivers were our first choice for this project but unfortunately since we did not hear back we went the other way, and also since this project targets more novice builders like me what we read on other forums (long waiting periods) was not what we were expecting, but again hearing from you is certainly encouraging.
unfortunately a lot of effort has been made to find replacement drivers and I m not sure how would others following this project and the design team would feel about changing the course again, this is certainly need to be discussed.
I would like to ask other members following this project to hear their opinion about which direction to go.
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I don't expect AE to sponsor a DIY project, also I m not counting on crowdfunding based on what we saw for monkey box funding. but that is cool.
I m not a big fan of changing courses again but we have to keep in mind all of our current options are at same price range, the cheapest one is Ciare and it is around 300$, so i don't think price should be a factor (unless we find something way cheaper, which is very unlikely) we have to see which one fits better
But I agree with you that whatever we go with should be easily available.
I m not a big fan of changing courses again but we have to keep in mind all of our current options are at same price range, the cheapest one is Ciare and it is around 300$, so i don't think price should be a factor (unless we find something way cheaper, which is very unlikely) we have to see which one fits better
But I agree with you that whatever we go with should be easily available.
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The AE drivers are probably very good, but getting some shipped to Europe will make them much more expensive than 300$, I may not be far off assuming shipping from the US to, in my case Norway, will be close to 80$. The Ciare and Faital units are cheaper to order from other European countries, ca 160-180£/each + shipping, pending on where you order from.
We (in Norway at least, also some other European countries) also have to pay taxes on top of this (cost of all items plus shipping gets a +25% tax, yes the shipping also gets a 25% tax, in adittion to a service fee of maybe around 25$) no matter where we order from, because we are not part of EU (read: European Union) but only part of the EEA (European Economic Area).
If there are people from for instance Australia that wish to build these speakers, they may not want to order from the US at all, regardless of manufacturer.
I apologize for the digression, but it may be of some benefit to have a more nuanced impression of global economy and trade.
If a driver costs 300$ in the US, and is available only from the US, it will be a whole lot more expensive everywhere else, while US Citizens ordering a 300$ driver from the US, can often get away with NO shipping and handling, Citizens from other countries get a cost of shipping/handling and taxes ++ on top of that.
We (in Norway at least, also some other European countries) also have to pay taxes on top of this (cost of all items plus shipping gets a +25% tax, yes the shipping also gets a 25% tax, in adittion to a service fee of maybe around 25$) no matter where we order from, because we are not part of EU (read: European Union) but only part of the EEA (European Economic Area).
If there are people from for instance Australia that wish to build these speakers, they may not want to order from the US at all, regardless of manufacturer.
I apologize for the digression, but it may be of some benefit to have a more nuanced impression of global economy and trade.
If a driver costs 300$ in the US, and is available only from the US, it will be a whole lot more expensive everywhere else, while US Citizens ordering a 300$ driver from the US, can often get away with NO shipping and handling, Citizens from other countries get a cost of shipping/handling and taxes ++ on top of that.
Yeah. This is also part of the compromise.
It seems a 15" is about the limit people are willing to accept. And it has to be a good performer, have decent availability, it seems some are more flexible on cost than others.
It would be nice to know the public opinion on cost and availability.
Slight OT:
If it was 100% up to me, and the form factor could be thrown out the window, I'd rather plan for a 21" woofer + a 10-12" mid/bass and most likely a suitable FR/Wideband unit up top, xo points maybe 100-200hz and 500-600hz. It would be large, loud and deep. Not to mention it would probably look like a Hulk version of the MonkeyBox which is also a big plus.
It seems a 15" is about the limit people are willing to accept. And it has to be a good performer, have decent availability, it seems some are more flexible on cost than others.
It would be nice to know the public opinion on cost and availability.
Slight OT:
If it was 100% up to me, and the form factor could be thrown out the window, I'd rather plan for a 21" woofer + a 10-12" mid/bass and most likely a suitable FR/Wideband unit up top, xo points maybe 100-200hz and 500-600hz. It would be large, loud and deep. Not to mention it would probably look like a Hulk version of the MonkeyBox which is also a big plus.
sorry for my absent, was busy over the weekend.
since we do not have any other opinions in past few days, I would suggest to go with what LORDSANSUI suggest.
LORDSANSUI brought up a very good point, why not have both options ? the box size can be the same, the port size can be changed, the problem would be the crossover part but since all of the options we have so far for LF and midrange are all well behaved drivers it may make things a little easier, but we have to see what the design team would say
so beside the B4 and Extended Bass port options, we can have 3 options (I added a 3rd option) :
1- AE drivers (TD15X and TD8M or TD6M).
2- Faital Pro LF + Midrange.
3- Faital Pro for LF + TD8M or TD6M.
IMO it can complicate things a little but it s nice to have options.
I like to hear what others think of this ?
since we do not have any other opinions in past few days, I would suggest to go with what LORDSANSUI suggest.
LORDSANSUI brought up a very good point, why not have both options ? the box size can be the same, the port size can be changed, the problem would be the crossover part but since all of the options we have so far for LF and midrange are all well behaved drivers it may make things a little easier, but we have to see what the design team would say
so beside the B4 and Extended Bass port options, we can have 3 options (I added a 3rd option
) :1- AE drivers (TD15X and TD8M or TD6M).
2- Faital Pro LF + Midrange.
3- Faital Pro for LF + TD8M or TD6M.
IMO it can complicate things a little but it s nice to have options.
I like to hear what others think of this ?
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If you try to avoid the concerns raised with the AE drivers, there is only one option left.
However, I would suggest to look into the availability and costs concerns a bit more, and compare with the other options. Shipping and import costs will not be very different with drivers from other manufacturers. Make sure to compare prices without shipping and VAT, etc.
Also, just as an example, I ordered the Faital woofers for the Monkey Coffin, and all I got was an email saying they were out of stock (although they were listed as "in stock"). No news from the supplier/distributor so far.
However, I would suggest to look into the availability and costs concerns a bit more, and compare with the other options. Shipping and import costs will not be very different with drivers from other manufacturers. Make sure to compare prices without shipping and VAT, etc.
Also, just as an example, I ordered the Faital woofers for the Monkey Coffin, and all I got was an email saying they were out of stock (although they were listed as "in stock"). No news from the supplier/distributor so far.
Guys - please stop quoting the post directly above yours when replying.
mbrennwa, you have a good point, John from AE also brought up the same point as well about the availability of other drivers. Running out of stock is always a possibility. Kaffimann also has a valid point that some drivers are not as easily available as others for example for the AE drivers you have no options but to order them from manufacturer and have to pay overseas shipment fees but with some other drivers like Faital there s a chance that a local distributor carrying the driver. This discussion can continue endlessly since both sides of the argument have valid points.
Looking at the candidate drivers for LF, we have 4 options :
Faital Pro 15FH500 ~305$
Faital Pro 15FH520 ~330$
Ciare FXE15-4 ~300$
AE TD15X ~350$
as you see all the drivers are in the same price range, I m not sure how shipping, VAT, ... effect the final costs, but for someone like me it will end up the same for any of the above drivers, and keep in mind shipping here is not as cheap either, it would be around 60-80$ for woofers, I may receive them faster than someone for example in Europe but the shipping cost is almost the same as the 80$ you mentioned (plus taxes of course). again, since some people have strong opinion against the other drivers, having two options might work.
Looking at the candidate drivers for LF, we have 4 options :
Faital Pro 15FH500 ~305$
Faital Pro 15FH520 ~330$
Ciare FXE15-4 ~300$
AE TD15X ~350$
as you see all the drivers are in the same price range, I m not sure how shipping, VAT, ... effect the final costs, but for someone like me it will end up the same for any of the above drivers, and keep in mind shipping here is not as cheap either, it would be around 60-80$ for woofers, I may receive them faster than someone for example in Europe but the shipping cost is almost the same as the 80$ you mentioned (plus taxes of course). again, since some people have strong opinion against the other drivers, having two options might work.
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