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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Restoring Infinity Preludes
Restoring Infinity Preludes
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Old 17th September 2018, 09:07 PM   #11
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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Restoring Infinity Preludes
What a minute, the Prelude is made by Honda, not Infiniti.
(sorry, I had to)
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Old 17th September 2018, 09:51 PM   #12
Patrick Bateman is offline Patrick Bateman  United States
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It's definitely been difficult to find parts when Craigslist and eBay keep auto-correcting my search to "Infiniti"
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Old 17th September 2018, 09:57 PM   #13
Patrick Bateman is offline Patrick Bateman  United States
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Click the image to open in full size.

The "cheap side" of my personality tells me to drop a whopping $96 on eight Pyle midranges, but I have a few qualms:

1) they look dumb

2) I don't think "Q" is a huge factor in sound quality, but a "Q" of over one is fairly ridiculous. I worry it will be audible.

3) The high Q and heavier cone is lowering the efficiency, compared to the Infinity

Click the image to open in full size.

Physically, Celestion's five inch midrange is a near-perfect fit.

Click the image to open in full size.

The Celestion is the first woofer I've evaluated that exceeds the "stock" performance. It's about 3dB more efficient. Due to it's lower Q, it works in the "stock" ported box, but without such an excessive bump in the midbass.

It's kinda spendy for a five inch woofer - it's $35 each and I need eight

I think I'll go this route though. Particularly if I opt to resell them in the future, the Celestion cosmetically looks like it "belongs" here, whereas the Pyle looks a bit rinky-dinky.
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Old 17th September 2018, 10:29 PM   #14
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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Restoring Infinity Preludes
No way to refoam those drivers? Or did I miss that part?

The Pyle drivers rarely measure anywhere near the stated specs, as you know. OK if you have them, but not if you are buying and haven't measured.
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Old 17th September 2018, 10:36 PM   #15
Patrick Bateman is offline Patrick Bateman  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pano View Post
No way to refoam those drivers? Or did I miss that part?
I could, I just don't want to refoam twelve drivers. Also, my initial measurements seem to indicate that at least one tweeter is blown, and possibly one mid and a woofer. The drivers are no longer available.

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Originally Posted by Pano View Post
The Pyle drivers rarely measure anywhere near the stated specs, as you know. OK if you have them, but not if you are buying and haven't measured.
Yeah the last two Pyle woofers I bought went straight in the trash. Couldn't tell if they were built defective or just a terrible design, their Q was something like 1.6, right out of the box, and xmax seemed to be a fraction of an inch.

For $12, the PDMR5s are legit. I believe the PDMW 5 is the same drivers as the PDMR 5, but with an open basket. So I cracked open a PDMR 5 that I have here and measured the T/S. (on the previous page.)

From what I can see, the Celestion TF 0510 is the closest match for the Infiniti. It kind of sucks to have to purchase eight at $35 a pop, but it's about 3dB more efficient than the $12 Pyle PDMW 5.
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Old 17th September 2018, 10:54 PM   #16
Patrick Bateman is offline Patrick Bateman  United States
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Click the image to open in full size.

Looks like Infiniti put a lot of their budget into the midranges. They're quite beastly.

Here's the measured specs:

sd = 62
fs = 59
re = 7.6
qes = 0.31
qms = 2.6
qts = 0.28

These things have a real motor on them. I can't recall the last time I've seen a motor like this on a 4" mid.
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Old 17th September 2018, 11:26 PM   #17
Patrick Bateman is offline Patrick Bateman  United States
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Click the image to open in full size.

The Faital four inch midranges are literally identical in dimensions. (4FE32 and 4FE35)

Click the image to open in full size.
Here's the Infinity 902-7345 vs the Faital 4FE32. The Faital is quite a bit more efficient. The high Q of the Faital creates a big peak in the response

Click the image to open in full size.

Increasing the volume of the cabinet from 0.14 liters to one liter smooths things out a lot, but I'm not sure if I have space to do that. (The speaker's crossover is right behind the midrange enclosure.

One option would be to share the enclosure with the woofer.
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Old 18th September 2018, 02:33 AM   #18
Patrick Bateman is offline Patrick Bateman  United States
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I've never rebuilt a speaker in my life, so if some of my comments are hopelessly noobish I apologize

Click the image to open in full size.

I created the crossover in Bill Waslo's XSIM, using Kimmo's Saunista's spltrace to generate the FRD files. With that data in hand, I can plug in various drivers and see how they perform.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

Here's the response using the Dayton RS125p paper cone reference woofer for the bass, and the ubiquitous Tymphany TC9 for the midrange. This wasn't a scientific choice, I basically wanted to see how the stock Infinity crossover would behave if I used a couple of drivers that DIDN'T closely match the "stock" drivers. To me, these results don't look too bad. Sure, there's a 3dB peak at 400Hz but I can EQ that out with MiniDSP, no problem.

Basically I'm trying to figure out if I can keep the stock enclosures, the stock passive crossovers, without having to find drivers that are exact matches for the Infinity drivers.

footnote : In the crossover simulation, the woofer section appears to be 3dB lower than the midrange section. This is because there are four woofers and two midranges. Once you factor in the additional woofers, the woofer section is basically the same efficiency as the midrange section.

Last edited by Patrick Bateman; 18th September 2018 at 02:37 AM.
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Old 18th September 2018, 04:26 AM   #19
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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Restoring Infinity Preludes
That's a big jump in volume to get the Faital to work - and then you'd have to attenuate it. It's a nice driver, but doesn't seem to be a great fit.
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Old 18th September 2018, 04:58 AM   #20
Patrick Bateman is offline Patrick Bateman  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pano View Post
That's a big jump in volume to get the Faital to work - and then you'd have to attenuate it. It's a nice driver, but doesn't seem to be a great fit.
Agreed.

A few hours ago, my plan was to use four Celestion five inch woofers to replace the "stock" Infinity woofers, and possibly use a pair of Faitals to replace the "stock" midranges. This is an expensive proposition; $140 for four woofers and $80 for two midranges.

Quite a bit, considering I paid $100 for each speaker.

After trying a pile of different woofers, I think that four of the MCM 55-1870s will work nicely for the woofer section ($48) and two of the Peerless 830870s will work nicely for the midrange section. ($60).

That reduces the cost per side by about fifty percent, and I have a hunch the Peerless midrange will outperform the Faital midrange. The Faital mids are largely designed for maximum output, while it's clear that the Infinity midrange is engineered for a balance between smooth response and efficiency.

Click the image to open in full size.

Here's how things look with the stock crossover, the Peerless 830870 midranges, and the MCM 55-1870 woofers. Not too shabby, especially for $108 per side. It still needs some EQ to reduce the bump at 400Hz, but nothing too difficult to fix with DSP.
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