Hello again jReave!
I think you are right. These two are already pushing flat to 20 with plenty of SPL to go beyond my usual listening levels. It does not go insanely loud before my 125W amp is cliping - But with 4 drivers and two 250 W amps instead i will never need more bottom i think xD
I am still a noob at crossovers and measurments, but slowly learning! And I will be a black hole at that event(Christmas dinner) sucking in every bit of information!
I also didn't get notified of Andy's and cOz's posts. However, i did get yours just now.
I think you are right. These two are already pushing flat to 20 with plenty of SPL to go beyond my usual listening levels. It does not go insanely loud before my 125W amp is cliping - But with 4 drivers and two 250 W amps instead i will never need more bottom i think xD
I am still a noob at crossovers and measurments, but slowly learning! And I will be a black hole at that event(Christmas dinner) sucking in every bit of information!
I also didn't get notified of Andy's and cOz's posts. However, i did get yours just now.
GreatLaBroski#
I think they sound better than any other speaker i ever had! The bottom end is amazing! never had speakers pushing the 20 Hz so this is a whole new ballgame for me!
I didn't post any measurments yet though, because I am not happy/satisfied with the sound myself just yet.
I have some issues with the midrange and tweeter integration. I hope it is just due to my lack of experience when it comes to measurments and crossovers.. Or my suboptimal measurment enviroment (small livingroom). Not happy with the MW19P performance above 3k (I am crossig at 2K) but not sure if it is only measurable or also audible.
Will post some measurments when i get a bit more hang on it!
Might also just be because I have to heigh expectations - afterall it sounds good the graph just doesn't look perfect..
My only "Highend" listening experience I can compare to is a demo of B&W's flagship 800D3.. Might not be a super fair comparison - should not be at least xD
But as long as i prefer my headphnes (Cheap steel series Siberia x300) sound (which i do in the midrange-high end - might just be because I use those headphones serveral hours everyday..) then I am not happy.. But it is getting close! The bottom end sure has past the headphones
I think they sound better than any other speaker i ever had! The bottom end is amazing! never had speakers pushing the 20 Hz so this is a whole new ballgame for me!
I didn't post any measurments yet though, because I am not happy/satisfied with the sound myself just yet.
I have some issues with the midrange and tweeter integration. I hope it is just due to my lack of experience when it comes to measurments and crossovers.. Or my suboptimal measurment enviroment (small livingroom). Not happy with the MW19P performance above 3k (I am crossig at 2K) but not sure if it is only measurable or also audible.
Will post some measurments when i get a bit more hang on it!
Might also just be because I have to heigh expectations - afterall it sounds good the graph just doesn't look perfect..
My only "Highend" listening experience I can compare to is a demo of B&W's flagship 800D3.. Might not be a super fair comparison - should not be at least xD
But as long as i prefer my headphnes (Cheap steel series Siberia x300) sound (which i do in the midrange-high end - might just be because I use those headphones serveral hours everyday..) then I am not happy.. But it is getting close! The bottom end sure has past the headphones
DannerD3H,
have you started setting up the FA board yet? I have FA123 and have encountered enormous obstacles on my way. I am ready to send teem back... I feed RCA Analog (forced) but making it work is lottery for me. My blog
Please report soon about your progress, I'll make boxes ready during next weekend and then I must decide which dsp and amps my MR183w's will have. Please feel free to contact me, I need peer support! I'll give you my email by private message.
have you started setting up the FA board yet? I have FA123 and have encountered enormous obstacles on my way. I am ready to send teem back... I feed RCA Analog (forced) but making it work is lottery for me. My blog
Please report soon about your progress, I'll make boxes ready during next weekend and then I must decide which dsp and amps my MR183w's will have. Please feel free to contact me, I need peer support! I'll give you my email by private message.
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Juhazi#
Yes I have been playing with it for a while now (started on my old speakers while building this one).
I will respond to your PM too, but for others to read I will also answer here
Yes I have been playing with it for a while now (started on my old speakers while building this one).
I will respond to your PM too, but for others to read I will also answer here
My experience with the FA so far:
I have mostly been using forced S/PDIF input I have also used the Toslink. All auto on/off features signal detect and so on disabled. With that I have had absolutely no issues what so ever. And I think the sound quality of the modules is really good (my previous amp was a 300€ Denon Surround receiver - so no hard core tube amp or other fancy stuff to compare it to).
I briefly tested the auto features.
I have mostly been using forced S/PDIF input I have also used the Toslink. All auto on/off features signal detect and so on disabled. With that I have had absolutely no issues what so ever. And I think the sound quality of the modules is really good (my previous amp was a 300€ Denon Surround receiver - so no hard core tube amp or other fancy stuff to compare it to).
I briefly tested the auto features.
* Auto off
- works perfectly with digital inputs.
- works perfectly with digital inputs.
*Auto on with signal detect:
- I think the input needed to trigger the amps is a bit too high.. My solution was to add a -12 dB preset gain to all presets. Then it is not soo loud when they trigger, but I would still like it to be more sensitive - Lower startup volume.
- I would like to be able to disable the inputs I don’t use. I never use AES but this is the first input it checks – it takes longer for it to actually select the active input. I think 5-10 seconds from input is send to a module in standby ontil music appears. This feature is not why I bought the modules. I like the idea and it is nayz, but could be better. It changes from S/Pdif to Toslink fine as well.
I have not used any analog inputs (all my sources are 100% digital) so I cannot comment on this part.
I DO NOT like the “Pop” when mains is cut.
I don’t do it – especially with the auto off it is not really a issue. But should it happen by accident or power-outage then I fear what may happen... This alone makes me consider returning it when they release their new revision (where this should be fixed). Or at least I will not buy the second one before this is fixed.
READ THIS!!!
With all the above in mind. I LOVE this amp! I think the idea of an affordable 3-way plate amp with full DSP features is amazing! Without it I wouldn’t have begun this build. That is 100% certain. It makes it much easier to learn about crossovers when you don’t have access to a pile of coils, capacitors and resistors. I also really like the idea of the speaker being stand-alone – No need for big ugly amplifiers. And I love the ability of different presets! Both for testing final crossover designs and for: Music, Movie and games.
READ THIS!!!
READ THIS!!!
With all the above in mind. I LOVE this amp! I think the idea of an affordable 3-way plate amp with full DSP features is amazing! Without it I wouldn’t have begun this build. That is 100% certain. It makes it much easier to learn about crossovers when you don’t have access to a pile of coils, capacitors and resistors. I also really like the idea of the speaker being stand-alone – No need for big ugly amplifiers. And I love the ability of different presets! Both for testing final crossover designs and for: Music, Movie and games.
READ THIS!!!
Thank you for encouragement! Today is Independence day so I am at home, and do some work with new speakers. I woke up the family with some sweeps from rew and minidsp. I guess I must try FAs again too.
Right now I'm walking the dog in the woods, hugging pine trees and gaining positive energy!
Right now I'm walking the dog in the woods, hugging pine trees and gaining positive energy!
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Ok, that made me laugh. Guess you still have a little work left in the shop.
Good to hear! Since you're actively crossing them over, you have some opportunities for steeper slopes. Beaming occurs around 2khz-2.1khz with the size of the MW19P-8's. That might be what you're hearing. I'd try a 4th order LR crossover around 1.8khz and see how it sounds; if you have the ability to do that.
Yup..
When i start projects like theese i think:
"Then i can just work a little on it when i have time and have a great time - hehe"
Then i actually start the project and get so excited and want to se the result NOW. So i spend roughly 120 hours in two months on building one speaker to hear what it will sound like - a "test" cabinet. Just to realize I am only halfway..
Then i get super demotivated to actually finish it..
Luckily this thing looks and sounds really great! so i WILL finish number two. But it will most likely take much longer as i might actually do as planned and just do a little when i have time
- Until i get close that is of course.. then i will get the same urge to hear the final result!. When i then have two fully functional speakers i might never get around to do the finish xDJamwat#
My orginal plan you can see on page 4. All black parts should be Ebonized. The rest should have a clear oil coat or something like that. As you might also be able to see on the images i plan to use black screws with a very low and big head (no need for washers). Also the screws in the top will be hidden by a top plate.
Now though, I kind of really like the light wood color. It doesn't look as heavy and love the contrast with the drivers. So I am devided..
I will finish the second speaker first. Also the side panels. Then I will try to wrap the speaker in something black and put the side panels on top of that. Then i can get a better idea of what I like most..
My orginal plan you can see on page 4. All black parts should be Ebonized. The rest should have a clear oil coat or something like that. As you might also be able to see on the images i plan to use black screws with a very low and big head (no need for washers). Also the screws in the top will be hidden by a top plate.
Now though, I kind of really like the light wood color. It doesn't look as heavy and love the contrast with the drivers. So I am devided..
I will finish the second speaker first. Also the side panels. Then I will try to wrap the speaker in something black and put the side panels on top of that. Then i can get a better idea of what I like most..
Maybe you can help me with some tips on the crossover?
First I tried LR24 filters on all drivers. Crossing at 80(and 150) and 2000 hz.
I managed to get a very flat response with a steady drop of 8-ish db from 20 to 20kHz. Step response was a mess. Sound was ok but a bit harsch
Now I use this:
S. Harsch XO
That means:
4th order Butterworth on the subs.
2nd order Bessel on the low mid.
2nd order Bessel on the high mid
4th order Butterworth on the Tweeter - Tweeter has reversed polarity.
I cross at 150 and 2000 Hz. Step response is not perfect, but much better than LR24. And the sound is much more calm and comfortable. The frequency response is not as nice as the LR24 but the idea is the same. A 8-ish dB drop from 20 to 20K.
I will post some images of measurements at some point - latest Monday.
But I definitely prefer the sound of the current Harsch version over the all LR24. I have them on each their preset so i can easily compare.
My biggest challenge is where to cut the mid to tweeter.. I have no idea how low my tweeter can go.. I am not sure if what I hear is a strained tweeter or the wired cone breakup from 3K and up on the MW19P.
The tweeter is a Scan Speak R3004/662000. It has a Fs of 520 Hz.
Troels Gravesen use the MW19P up to 1700 Hz only in one of his constructions. It is paired with a SB tweeter with a Fs around 600 I think. So I guess I could do the same? Anyone with experience in crossing the R3004 low?
Tweeter datasheet:
https://www.scan-speak.dk/datasheet/pdf/r3004-662000.pdf
Mid datasheet:
71/2" SATORI MW19P-4 :: SB Acoustics
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Yes, I admire Danner's woodworking skills and facilities too!
My routine is to measure intended speaker drivers in a test baffle or box (with intended width), Distance about 40-60cm, dB level about 100dB, use a turntable for off-axis. Then in REW I overlay responses to see directivity. Distortion in lower end is important too. Initial crossover points and slopes are based on this info. For mid /woofer to tweeter xo we are often forced to make a poor compromise between directivity/summing and tweeter's distortion.
When crossover slopes are set, I play only two drivers at the time and check summing of slopes (I use symmetric LR2 or LR4) by looking at step response and summing of normal vs. reversed polarity. When xo is above 1kHz, timing is very delicate - change delay setting in dsp, typically the highpassed driver needs more delay/distance! And around 3-4kHz timing is easily one cycle off. This leads to comb filtering roughly one octave above xo and can be seen as untypical step response, when zoomed generously.
These problems can be ofcourse analyzed and handled with precise measurements in a modern design software, like VituixCAD.
My routine is to measure intended speaker drivers in a test baffle or box (with intended width), Distance about 40-60cm, dB level about 100dB, use a turntable for off-axis. Then in REW I overlay responses to see directivity. Distortion in lower end is important too. Initial crossover points and slopes are based on this info. For mid /woofer to tweeter xo we are often forced to make a poor compromise between directivity/summing and tweeter's distortion.
When crossover slopes are set, I play only two drivers at the time and check summing of slopes (I use symmetric LR2 or LR4) by looking at step response and summing of normal vs. reversed polarity. When xo is above 1kHz, timing is very delicate - change delay setting in dsp, typically the highpassed driver needs more delay/distance! And around 3-4kHz timing is easily one cycle off. This leads to comb filtering roughly one octave above xo and can be seen as untypical step response, when zoomed generously.
These problems can be ofcourse analyzed and handled with precise measurements in a modern design software, like VituixCAD.
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Hi DannerD3H
Looks very good, your build.
What exactly are you not happy about with the MW19P?
One thing I think might be a challenge with your build is the change in dispersion going from the MW19 to the tweeter.
The tweeter is known for a very wide dispersion. a 7½ inch driver will of course begin to beam from ca 1.5 kHz, so the room response will probably be missing some mid power from 1.5 kHz to the crossover point. ..... but this is something one could say about 90% of speakers
But let's see some measurements, also to make sure the crossover is adjusted to the speakers, the delay to the tweeter is right etc.
With these drivers in your lovely enclosure, I'm sure you will be able to tune it to something really amazing.
KR Baldin
JReave#
I don't think I did. I did now though, I think. Interesting approach! I like that it is not just guessing on the acoustic center. But is there a way to do it without his spreadsheet? or a way to get his spreadsheet?
Baldin#
Thanks!
I heard some speakers this weekend eliminating all my doubts in the MW19P - Great and impressive driver indeed!
However you are right, my biggest issue is going to bee the match between my tweeter and woofer. In fact these drivers might not be the best match.. The woofer likes a low crossover point 1500ish Hz. The tweeter likes a higher 2500+ Hz. But we will see if we cannot make a proper compromise! My quick test this morning looks promising!
I didn't get to do "postable" measurements yet, will try on Wednesday. Then I will spam you with measurements!
One question: How do I know how much resistance is needed in my aperiodic enclosure? Could the Scanspeak vent be generating to much resistance? What will be the symptoms of to much or to little dampening in an aperiodic enclosure?
I don't think I did. I did now though, I think. Interesting approach! I like that it is not just guessing on the acoustic center. But is there a way to do it without his spreadsheet? or a way to get his spreadsheet?
Baldin#
Thanks!
I heard some speakers this weekend eliminating all my doubts in the MW19P - Great and impressive driver indeed!
However you are right, my biggest issue is going to bee the match between my tweeter and woofer. In fact these drivers might not be the best match.. The woofer likes a low crossover point 1500ish Hz. The tweeter likes a higher 2500+ Hz. But we will see if we cannot make a proper compromise! My quick test this morning looks promising!
I didn't get to do "postable" measurements yet, will try on Wednesday. Then I will spam you with measurements!
One question: How do I know how much resistance is needed in my aperiodic enclosure? Could the Scanspeak vent be generating to much resistance? What will be the symptoms of to much or to little dampening in an aperiodic enclosure?
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