There are several reasons that NS10s are still ubiquitous in recording and mixing field.
Actually, one of the main reasons why NS10 is so ubiquitous for last 40-50 years is because it is ubiquitous. We all know the behavior of NS10 so well, that we can tell the signature of unknown control room and the other variables (amp, mixer etc) through it.
We all know the sound signature of NS10, so guessing how the music will sound with the other environment/speaker is easier. We call it translation. Actually good translation factor is one of the main reason that NS10 has gotten huge popularity, I believe. If the music sounds great on NS10, we can be confident that the master tape is enough commercial quality to send to the mastering studio for the final touch.
Also for pop music mixing, vocal and bass balance is by far the most important and the most difficult task, and I don’t really know any other speaker that can tell us the correct balance of them. I think the limited frequency response of NS10s really shines here.
The other very successful nearfield monitors like Genelec 1031 and Barefoot MM27 have more resolution, better frequency / phase response, but NS10 still do better for translation and vocal/bass level confirmation, I think, and probably many people think the same.
I don’t really know why near field monitors has become popular than much larger Altec 604 kind speakers that was popular in 60s, but I guess it is because the consumer speakers became smaller, and, car audio, boombox and walkman became popular. Also, due to multi track recording, the mixing and recording process is much more complicated and time consuming, so the engineer has to spend much longer time in front of the speakers while avoiding ear fatigue. It is not uncommon spending more than 12 hors for mixing one song, so that mixing engineers usually playback music extremely quietly except when he has to check noise or bass response etc. for a very short term.
Large monitors are not used much today, so we are joking that those monsters are there just to impress the studio’s client, musician’s friend or ignorant record company’s A&R playing back the music super loudly.
Actually, one of the main reasons why NS10 is so ubiquitous for last 40-50 years is because it is ubiquitous. We all know the behavior of NS10 so well, that we can tell the signature of unknown control room and the other variables (amp, mixer etc) through it.
We all know the sound signature of NS10, so guessing how the music will sound with the other environment/speaker is easier. We call it translation. Actually good translation factor is one of the main reason that NS10 has gotten huge popularity, I believe. If the music sounds great on NS10, we can be confident that the master tape is enough commercial quality to send to the mastering studio for the final touch.
Also for pop music mixing, vocal and bass balance is by far the most important and the most difficult task, and I don’t really know any other speaker that can tell us the correct balance of them. I think the limited frequency response of NS10s really shines here.
The other very successful nearfield monitors like Genelec 1031 and Barefoot MM27 have more resolution, better frequency / phase response, but NS10 still do better for translation and vocal/bass level confirmation, I think, and probably many people think the same.
I don’t really know why near field monitors has become popular than much larger Altec 604 kind speakers that was popular in 60s, but I guess it is because the consumer speakers became smaller, and, car audio, boombox and walkman became popular. Also, due to multi track recording, the mixing and recording process is much more complicated and time consuming, so the engineer has to spend much longer time in front of the speakers while avoiding ear fatigue. It is not uncommon spending more than 12 hors for mixing one song, so that mixing engineers usually playback music extremely quietly except when he has to check noise or bass response etc. for a very short term.
Large monitors are not used much today, so we are joking that those monsters are there just to impress the studio’s client, musician’s friend or ignorant record company’s A&R playing back the music super loudly.
Thanks much. The feeling is mutual.
It was no tease to say monitors are as much geared to inter-changabilty as to HQ per se. Recording engineers - many of them prolly with defective HF hearing - intuitively know just how to work with a "standard" speaker with, say, poor low bass.
Anybody notice the great uniformity of almost all aspects of console design and even little mic mixers? Actually, many of those consoles are as poorly designed as some nuclear power plant control rooms I'm acquainted with.*
Yes, from a human-factors perspective, appropriate uniformity can be beneficial... up to a point.
I try never to tease, be sarcastic, or troll. Anybody with half a brain would understand there's no sure way for a web reader to separate straight from sarcastic writing. And likewise for trolling. For a few years, I taught a University of Toronto course for professional tech writers.
B.
* sorry, no names, DAMHIK
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Hi Zvu,
In fact i confess that like Brett i thought you were actually serious and didn't spot the sarcasm. I was a bit astounded at first then i told myself there may have been a sense lost in translation.
Now it is clear.
If nobody likes it (D&D and Kii3) how come so much guys buy it and put them in home as mains or in studios ? That was the part i thought was obvious. It was about post 27 and i don't think i can learn from a guy that can write this and mean it because he is so obviously wrong:
Let's not forget that nobody talked about two way monitors before him in this thread and AlexMusic wants to make 3 way. He just writes what he wants and was of no help to anyone.
...Ben have strong opinions and this is expected from someone with such a long experience in the audio.
The way he explain them is a bit on the rough side and i suppose he like to tease just a bit too...
Years of experience in the audio doesn't mean that he knows what he's talking about. He could just be wrong for very long time. I don't mind being rough when someone is right. Geddes is a good example. He can be rough but he's usually right, which i can't say about Ben - or at least the posts i ran into in the threads i'm interested in.
.......
That being said i like Ben more and more as i read him ( no sarcasm intended i'm sincere) and there is a lot to learn from the guy! (Yes motion feedback is GOOD!).
You just have to adjust about the way he interact... and his own preference.
I have no feelings about him and i really don't have to adjust to anything he does or says. His preference is his own thing but when he starts like he did in lots of threads, that his preference is the only right preference, i react as i did.
Maybe trying to use the other half of the brain would help ? You're welcome.
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Hi,
If you plan to build something for monitoring purpose you should start by defining the needs of spl at sweet spot, the use intended (monitor, mix or mastering) and everything you listed.
Without this copying a commercial design without understanding the designer goal is taking the risk of high failure.
Plasnu this is a great simple explanation about nearfield. My own preference are more for Auratone but other nearfield are ok too (depend of style, lot of hip hop session i was involved as assistant was done on K-rock at the time and results were great, lot of rock and electronic was done on Tannoy with same outcome).
In the end i think you nailed it when you said the thing is to be used/accustomed to a monitor and this only come with practice, mistakes and someone to tell you what they were (i ALWAYS gone to mastering session and talked a lot with the engineer which corrected my works. It was tuff most of the time (for my ego) but i learned a lot this way).
Zvu,
They were slowly replacing the 'good' monitors used (like 1031 or Quested vs2108 or Meyer HD1 or NHT A20) in almost all the place i worked. I never understood why...
For the rest, well... i share some view with Ben and not some others. We already had some opinion divergence and i know he thought about ideas which was exchanged (as i did) and it made us both go forward i think (at least it made for me). Could be the same here.
Back to topic,
Alex Music could you give a list of your expactations as Hammersandwich stated it could be of help for the one who want to.
It does sound quite good to me. I don't think you messed up anything and this is why i told (as others did too) there will be much chance of satisfaction to go shopping something already availlable.
If you plan to build something for monitoring purpose you should start by defining the needs of spl at sweet spot, the use intended (monitor, mix or mastering) and everything you listed.
Without this copying a commercial design without understanding the designer goal is taking the risk of high failure.
Plasnu this is a great simple explanation about nearfield. My own preference are more for Auratone but other nearfield are ok too (depend of style, lot of hip hop session i was involved as assistant was done on K-rock at the time and results were great, lot of rock and electronic was done on Tannoy with same outcome).
In the end i think you nailed it when you said the thing is to be used/accustomed to a monitor and this only come with practice, mistakes and someone to tell you what they were (i ALWAYS gone to mastering session and talked a lot with the engineer which corrected my works. It was tuff most of the time (for my ego) but i learned a lot this way).
From my experience it was the same in the facility i used to work in. Thus said some (not all) studio mains i've heard (the couple acoustics/monitors) where great and really usefull (Hidley/kinoshita RM7/8, some Tannoy DMT15II in smaller room, Exigy in room designed for them). But i've heard big Genelec, Atc and some Kinoshita RM-4, Focal which were just awfull.
Zvu,
Because of trend/fashion. I've not heard the nearfield in question so i can't speak for them but when i left studio world the brand 'in vogue' was Adam... They never made it for me and i've heard almost all their range.
They were slowly replacing the 'good' monitors used (like 1031 or Quested vs2108 or Meyer HD1 or NHT A20) in almost all the place i worked. I never understood why...
For the rest, well... i share some view with Ben and not some others. We already had some opinion divergence and i know he thought about ideas which was exchanged (as i did) and it made us both go forward i think (at least it made for me). Could be the same here.
Back to topic,
Alex Music could you give a list of your expactations as Hammersandwich stated it could be of help for the one who want to.
Well, I tried to build a Kii Three Clone two years ago using the Seas Coax L12RE/XFC and 4 Reckhorn D165.
Here are some pictures:
The main goal was to figure out if the cardioid bass works and it does. So, if you have time enough and some experience in loudspeaker measurements and woodwork — just give it a try.
Using some digital amplifier boards, the original Tweeter and a good midrange plus MiniDSPs OpenDRC DA8 and the problems are not so big as it seems.
Here are some pictures:
The main goal was to figure out if the cardioid bass works and it does. So, if you have time enough and some experience in loudspeaker measurements and woodwork — just give it a try.
Using some digital amplifier boards, the original Tweeter and a good midrange plus MiniDSPs OpenDRC DA8 and the problems are not so big as it seems.
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Love you, man... and my Auratones!Just think "dipole", "ambience" and DSP; don't think "point source", diffraction, comb filtering, passive crossover, and small box. Good to see more dipole-like designs that put music into your room instead of broadcasting from a point in space.
While lots of us swear by DSPs, the Kii-3 comes with default pre-figured DSP. No speaker is likely to meet today's DIY quality expectations without that kind of adjustability.
B.
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The 901K does only have one woofer.
The way they did it is with an open back cab that is partially blocked by their plate amp leaving two wide rectangular slots which are carefully and frequency specifically damped with foam to achieve the cardioid response.
At least that is my understanding of how they work.
This approach needs a lot of experimentation I guess but from an engineering point of view it is a more elegant solution that the brute force DSP method which requires two extra drivers and amp channels just to reduce the sound coming from the main woofer.
The way they did it is with an open back cab that is partially blocked by their plate amp leaving two wide rectangular slots which are carefully and frequency specifically damped with foam to achieve the cardioid response.
At least that is my understanding of how they work.
This approach needs a lot of experimentation I guess but from an engineering point of view it is a more elegant solution that the brute force DSP method which requires two extra drivers and amp channels just to reduce the sound coming from the main woofer.
As noted before, i made a full range cardioid monitor using only one woofer. So a passive cardioid enclosure for the midbass.
It's certainly doable. Maybe not the same level of LF suppression as the pro's, but close.
Spendormania and Jag768, guys you've done some VERY impressive efforts!! 
Spendormania have you had the chance to compare them to original (or ever heard one and have some memory about them)?
Jag768 are this plot from the waveguide design you show in your other thread?
Charles, sure we agree share some things in common... modular, nearfield,Tannoy i'm sure we have a lot of lp in common too...
Spendormania have you had the chance to compare them to original (or ever heard one and have some memory about them)?
Jag768 are this plot from the waveguide design you show in your other thread?
Charles,
sure we agree share some things in common... modular, nearfield,Tannoy i'm sure we have a lot of lp in common too... 
interesting project and nice build, I was thinking about doing the same with DA classic subs, I would end up w up to 800$ just for woofers and DSPs, well, a bit more than I would spend on a experience, do you have a thread for your Kii clone ? i would like to read more about your experience.
Wisdom of the Crowd
"Controlled Directivity is important" is a major theme of this monitor thread
Genius #1
Kii and Dutch&Dutch8C use extensive DSP and include rear Cardiod woofers. Dutch&Dutch8C measurement data shows very good directivity down to 100-200Hz.
Genius #2
20" x 16" 3-way Synergy horn measurement data shows good directivity down to 200Hz with simple DSP or passive Xover.
======
Are there any successful Synergy Horn High End Studio Monitors?
SEOS Synergy
"Controlled Directivity is important" is a major theme of this monitor thread
Genius #1
Kii and Dutch&Dutch8C use extensive DSP and include rear Cardiod woofers. Dutch&Dutch8C measurement data shows very good directivity down to 100-200Hz.
Genius #2
20" x 16" 3-way Synergy horn measurement data shows good directivity down to 200Hz with simple DSP or passive Xover.
======
Are there any successful Synergy Horn High End Studio Monitors?
SEOS Synergy
I've listened KiiThree and there is nothing fashionable about its sound other than neutrality at its best. But let us presume that i am biased because of its fashionable Moulinex bread maker appearance. Siegfried Linkwitz, may his soul rest in peace, wrote quoted text and remember - that's the guy who listened OB for most part of his life designed by himself:
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Hi Zvu,
I'm not questioning the quality of Kii as i didn't heard them. I suppose they are good at what they do because there is a very broad acceptation of them from (very) differents people in rec industry. The 'good', or at least usable tools, pass the test of time in recording industry so time will tell what status they will have ( trendy things or solid usefull tools which will go up in price in 20years to the point people get mortgage to own one pair with blown membrane -(Neumann not the submarine) U-47 anyone? )
My remark was just about the fact that proaudio is in any way a field which is sometimes not rational and some 'strange' things (for me) happen there too.
Interisting you talk about the look, i suppose this was one of the reason Adam had such success ( with their 'darth wader ' /stealth jet fighter appearence...and the fact they used ribbon at the same time people rediscovered the ribbon microphone virtue in digital environnement. A trend at the time.) Ns10 does have the same iconic and easily identifiable appearence.
Very interesting quote from S.Linkwitz, thank you.
I'm not questioning the quality of Kii as i didn't heard them. I suppose they are good at what they do because there is a very broad acceptation of them from (very) differents people in rec industry. The 'good', or at least usable tools, pass the test of time in recording industry so time will tell what status they will have ( trendy things or solid usefull tools which will go up in price in 20years to the point people get mortgage to own one pair with blown membrane -(Neumann not the submarine) U-47 anyone? )
My remark was just about the fact that proaudio is in any way a field which is sometimes not rational and some 'strange' things (for me) happen there too.
Interisting you talk about the look, i suppose this was one of the reason Adam had such success ( with their 'darth wader ' /stealth jet fighter appearence...and the fact they used ribbon at the same time people rediscovered the ribbon microphone virtue in digital environnement. A trend at the time.) Ns10 does have the same iconic and easily identifiable appearence.
Very interesting quote from S.Linkwitz, thank you.
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I wrote a review on both the Kii THREE and D&D 8c. There should be enough technical information there to understand how they work...
As an ex recording/mixing engineer during the time when the state of the art analog was moving to digital, I wish I had either one of these speakers for studio monitors...
As an ex recording/mixing engineer during the time when the state of the art analog was moving to digital, I wish I had either one of these speakers for studio monitors...